Away Match Day Thread 18/9/21 L1: Cheltenham Town v OUFC

Have to agree with Manorlounger - how any manager can come out with some of the compliments KR does - after a defeat - worries me no end. What he & the club "learnt" after last year's experience has certainly not been put into practice. We still look 'lightweight' against most teams & until we get that "muscle" into our squad League 1 is where we will stay. Why on earth we fought to get Gavin Whyte back here and then put his right wing skills on the left side baffles me & most other fans. Our board have backed KR's choices - let's see how long their patience lasts.
 
It is interesting how noble came in at the last minute for West ham. No scramble for GPS or some other techy addition. Do other clubs do what we do re all this statistical analysis or do they stand by the side of the pitch laughing whilst they gallop past our defence and score.
Of course Noble missed. I think every club uses data analysis, especially crappy ones like Wycombe who need to maximise their squad
 
It is interesting how noble came in at the last minute for West ham. No scramble for GPS or some other techy addition. Do other clubs do what we do re all this statistical analysis or do they stand by the side of the pitch laughing whilst they gallop past our defence and score.
Every club will do statistical analysis and even down to academy level.
Premier league players won’t use gps vests in games like we do due to using a different soft ware which will track a lot more detailed stats than a league 1/2 club do.
Clubs generally don’t use all the available stats either. They will use ones that will be to do with their footballing philosophy. Eg. Opposition box entries, 1st and 2nd ball wins, XG, where balls are being delivered into the box from, possession control after set pieces. The list will go on.
 
I resisted the temptation to post last night after getting back for fear of not being constructive. Having slept on it, i feel no less annoyed and frankly dumbfounded about yesterday’s performance.

First and foremost, who are these Oxford supporters that have this self righteous attitude towards teams like Cheltenham, AFC and Wycombe? What in gods name gives us a divine right to beat any one of them? Is it because we play 4 square passes across our backline before the inevitable, hopeful ball up to Taylor’s head/shoulders/ chest (which he never wins btw!)? Newsflash: Square passes do not make you a good footballing team nor do they make you an effective one!

I said it after last week and i’ll say it again, KR has not addressed the midfield physical ability issues he spoke about after Blackpool. We are powder puff at best and downright soft at worst.

Maybe at 33 i’m old fashioned (surely not!) but i do not care for a pretty footballing team and the comments i heard in the away end yesterday and the derogatory way in which people spoke of Cheltenham was bizarre. They deserved to beat us with their style. Just like AFC deserved to beat us and just like Wycombe were worthy of a point last week. It is not up to these teams to bow to our ‘superior’ footballing philosophy, it is up to KR and Co to find a way to break these teams down and find a way to win. right now, playing a bloke who’s 5’10” up top, on his own, with a right footed winger playing from the left and no focal point to our attack i just cannot see how the tide will change against these teams.

KR is inflexible and downright stubborn in his approach, or so it would seem. Unless he has a willingness to accept a change of system is required against the more direct oppositions, a mid-table (at best) season awaits.

Fingers crossed Erik and Co are willing to plough more money into us in Jan as for the love of god, we will require a CF not in the mould of Taylor and Winnall and we will require a CM who has the ability to impose himself. Stay in touch until then, get those players in and you just never know.

Final point, travelling numbers were again outstanding - more variety of song and prolonged spells of singing required. That said, the fare on the pitch could really help with that!
then you shouldnt mind losing to these teams then.
 
There's a lot of ignorance about xG being used as a way of analysing performance.

The reality is that it is showing us exactly what most have been saying all season. That is, we get into good position, create chances, but we're not scoring them. Just from the basic highlights we can see;

Against Cambridge, Taylor had 2 very good chances from headers, Whyte put it wide when he could have played it across for a tap in, Bodin scoops it over from a yard out.

Charlton Sykes should have scored but drills it onto Winnall's studs rather than giving him a tap in. Crewe, McNally free header over, Taylor unable to finish a pull back across goal, Dan gets to the ball before keeper and is unlucky not to get his quick boot on target.

Bolton, Whyte horribly fires over from yards out. Wimbledon, Holland through on goal and dithers. Wycombe, Brannagan drags one wide. Cheltenham, Whyte blazes over.

These are just the chances that appear on the 2 minutes of highlights, but I can remember the same again not shown where we've got in great positions that have come to nothing.

This shows that our play in the last third isn't as bad as some think, we're creating some excellent chances. However, poor finishing, poor decision making and some very good goalkeeping is the difference between scoring or not, and ultimately winning or not.

xG is only one part of data analysis that every team use to manage performances, and it does help define exactly where improvements can be made.
 
Every successful club in the world invest in more data analysts, as a few fans on a forum say it’s nonsense. I wonder who has the edge.
There's a big difference between data analysis, monitoring the health and fitness of players, and complete overload of ridiculous and pointless statistics, that largely mean nothing.

A team could have 80% possession, 30 shots on target, and 20 corners, but score zero goals, while the opposition have 20% possession, zero corners, and zero shots on target, other than one long ball up to the striker, who get's fouled and wins a penalty, and scores, winning 1-0.

Many teams have won games, having had less possession, less corners, less shots on goal etc.

The same applies to all sport. A tennis player could win a 5 set match 7-6, 7-6, 0-6, 0-6, 7-5. The winner wins 21 games overall, but the loser actually won 29 games, but still lost the match.

In snooker, a player could win the world championship 18-17, but during the match, didn't make a single century break, and won all their frames by stealing the frame on the last couple of balls, but the loser actually won all their frames making centuries, and big frame winning clearances, amassing a much higher amount of points throughout the match, but still losing.

Health and fitness Data analysis is one thing, with the advances in technology, it can be used to help monitor the health and fitness of a player, in order to help keep them fit and in good condition, and many clubs and athletes use modern data analysis, and that's justified and understandable.

Statistical data is used to reflect upon after a game, to show what areas the team did well in, and where there is need for improvement, such as not enough shots, too many corners conceded, not retaining possession enough, areas of the pitch where they had most possession, free kicks won/conceded, tackles won/lost, 2nd balls won/lost etc, and this is all info that can be used to adjust tactics and focus on certain areas of improvement in training, so even though it can get a bit OTT, it does have it's merit.

But the whole xG (expected goals) nonsense and other extreme statistical analysis is where it gets bloody ridiculous, as historical statistical data means nothing, as in each game the statistics will have been effected by the opposition, conditions, different players, lineups and form, and no two games are the same, so how anyone thinks that kind of data can be consistently reliable in any way is ludicrous.

I used to love watching football on the TV, at all levels, no matter who was playing, and I'll always love supporting and watching Oxford United, but in my opinion, football, and all sport in fact, is becoming way too over analytical, and it's sucking the fun out of it. It's being treated like it's rocket science, with too much reliance on technology and statistics, which is making it boring and soulless, which is why I and people I know don't really watch much football anymore, other than the team we actually support.

Instinctive, naturally talented players coming through nowadays are being considered "raw" and then overloaded with modern day info, tactics, and statistics, until that instinctive raw natural talent is stamped out, leaving a boring, tactically overloaded, obedient conveyor belt-type player.

Football is an art form, based on natural talent, passion and instinct, and survived for over 100 years without this kind of nonsense, and was all the better for it.

Thank god we all got to see the world class instinctive natural talent, and genius players of decades gone by, before the modern game managed to get it's claws into them!
 
There's a big difference between data analysis, monitoring the health and fitness of players, and complete overload of ridiculous and pointless statistics, that largely mean nothing.

A team could have 80% possession, 30 shots on target, and 20 corners, but score zero goals, while the opposition have 20% possession, zero corners, and zero shots on target, other than one long ball up to the striker, who get's fouled and wins a penalty, and scores, winning 1-0.

Many teams have won games, having had less possession, less corners, less shots on goal etc.

The same applies to all sport. A tennis player could win a 5 set match 7-6, 7-6, 0-6, 0-6, 7-5. The winner wins 21 games overall, but the loser actually won 29 games, but still lost the match.

In snooker, a player could win the world championship 18-17, but during the match, didn't make a single century break, and won all their frames by stealing the frame on the last couple of balls, but the loser actually won all their frames making centuries, and big frame winning clearances, amassing a much higher amount of points throughout the match, but still losing.

Health and fitness Data analysis is one thing, with the advances in technology, it can be used to help monitor the health and fitness of a player, in order to help keep them fit and in good condition, and many clubs and athletes use modern data analysis, and that's justified and understandable.

Statistical data is used to reflect upon after a game, to show what areas the team did well in, and where there is need for improvement, such as not enough shots, too many corners conceded, not retaining possession enough, areas of the pitch where they had most possession, free kicks won/conceded, tackles won/lost, 2nd balls won/lost etc, and this is all info that can be used to adjust tactics and focus on certain areas of improvement in training, so even though it can get a bit OTT, it does have it's merit.

But the whole xG (expected goals) nonsense and other extreme statistical analysis is where it gets bloody ridiculous, as historical statistical data means nothing, as in each game the statistics will have been effected by the opposition, conditions, different players, lineups and form, and no two games are the same, so how anyone thinks that kind of data can be consistently reliable in any way is ludicrous.

I used to love watching football on the TV, at all levels, no matter who was playing, and I'll always love supporting and watching Oxford United, but in my opinion, football, and all sport in fact, is becoming way too over analytical, and it's sucking the fun out of it. It's being treated like it's rocket science, with too much reliance on technology and statistics, which is making it boring and soulless, which is why I and people I know don't really watch much football anymore, other than the team we actually support.

Instinctive, naturally talented players coming through nowadays are being considered "raw" and then overloaded with modern day info, tactics, and statistics, until that instinctive raw natural talent is stamped out, leaving a boring, tactically overloaded, obedient conveyor belt-type player.

Football is an art form, based on natural talent, passion and instinct, and survived for over 100 years without this kind of nonsense, and was all the better for it.

Thank god we all got to see the world class instinctive natural talent, and genius players of decades gone by, before the modern game managed to get it's claws into them!

If xG is nonsense, why does every top team spend a huge amount of money analysing it?
 
There's a big difference between data analysis, monitoring the health and fitness of players, and complete overload of ridiculous and pointless statistics, that largely mean nothing.

A team could have 80% possession, 30 shots on target, and 20 corners, but score zero goals, while the opposition have 20% possession, zero corners, and zero shots on target, other than one long ball up to the striker, who get's fouled and wins a penalty, and scores, winning 1-0.

Many teams have won games, having had less possession, less corners, less shots on goal etc.

The same applies to all sport. A tennis player could win a 5 set match 7-6, 7-6, 0-6, 0-6, 7-5. The winner wins 21 games overall, but the loser actually won 29 games, but still lost the match.

In snooker, a player could win the world championship 18-17, but during the match, didn't make a single century break, and won all their frames by stealing the frame on the last couple of balls, but the loser actually won all their frames making centuries, and big frame winning clearances, amassing a much higher amount of points throughout the match, but still losing.

Health and fitness Data analysis is one thing, with the advances in technology, it can be used to help monitor the health and fitness of a player, in order to help keep them fit and in good condition, and many clubs and athletes use modern data analysis, and that's justified and understandable.

Statistical data is used to reflect upon after a game, to show what areas the team did well in, and where there is need for improvement, such as not enough shots, too many corners conceded, not retaining possession enough, areas of the pitch where they had most possession, free kicks won/conceded, tackles won/lost, 2nd balls won/lost etc, and this is all info that can be used to adjust tactics and focus on certain areas of improvement in training, so even though it can get a bit OTT, it does have it's merit.

But the whole xG (expected goals) nonsense and other extreme statistical analysis is where it gets bloody ridiculous, as historical statistical data means nothing, as in each game the statistics will have been effected by the opposition, conditions, different players, lineups and form, and no two games are the same, so how anyone thinks that kind of data can be consistently reliable in any way is ludicrous.

I used to love watching football on the TV, at all levels, no matter who was playing, and I'll always love supporting and watching Oxford United, but in my opinion, football, and all sport in fact, is becoming way too over analytical, and it's sucking the fun out of it. It's being treated like it's rocket science, with too much reliance on technology and statistics, which is making it boring and soulless, which is why I and people I know don't really watch much football anymore, other than the team we actually support.

Instinctive, naturally talented players coming through nowadays are being considered "raw" and then overloaded with modern day info, tactics, and statistics, until that instinctive raw natural talent is stamped out, leaving a boring, tactically overloaded, obedient conveyor belt-type player.

Football is an art form, based on natural talent, passion and instinct, and survived for over 100 years without this kind of nonsense, and was all the better for it.

Thank god we all got to see the world class instinctive natural talent, and genius players of decades gone by, before the modern game managed to get it's claws into them!
And the players have to wear that sports bra thing!! That can’t be right can it?
 
If xG is nonsense, why does every top team spend a huge amount of money analysing it?
Because that's the world we live in Scotchers, in all walks of life, huge amounts of money is being wasted on things that are simply not needed.

Like I said in my previous post, teams got by fine without this nonsense for decades, when the game was exciting, intense, full of passion and desire, and performances of players and teams, whilst obviously having tactics and game plans, were way more natural, instinctive and unpredictable, with more off the cuff moments of magic and genius.

Football is like watching a game of chess these days, certainly at the top level. The whole approach is so clinical and analytical and over complicated these days, and it's made it boring.

I tried to watch Man Utd v West Ham, and Spurs v Chelsea yesterday, games that would usually have been full of passion, excitement and real moments of magic 10-15 years ago, but I was so bored, I turned over, a common theme for a lot of people I speak to these days.

Just because these money bag football clubs spend so much money on this nonsense, doesn't necessarily mean it's good.
 
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Because that's the world we live in Scotchers, in all walks of life, huge amounts of money is being wasted on things that are simply not needed.

Like I said in my previous post, teams got by fine without this nonsense for decades, when the game was exciting, intense, full of passion and desire, and performances of players and teams, whilst obviously having tactics and gamelans, were way more natural, instinctive and unpredictable, with more off the cuff moments of magic and genius.

Football is like watching a game of chess these days, certainly at the top level. The whole approach is so clinical and analytical and over complicated these days, and it's made it boring.

I tried to watch Man Utd v West Ham, and Spurs v Chelsea yesterday, games that would usually have been full of passion, excitement and real moments of magic 5-10 years ago, but I was so bored, I turned over, a common theme for a lot of people I speak to these days.

Just because these money bag football clubs spend so much money on this nonsense, doesn't necessarily mean it's good.

Footballers got by with eating steak and eggs before games, having a fag at half time and drinking all week. They'd play 50 games a season on crappy pitches with no protection from dangerous tackles.

But these players ended up with crippling injuries, alcoholism and broke.

The game has changed. Players diets are monitored. How far they run in games. Recovery times. Sleep patterns. xG, xA (assists). It's all part of the way teams can develop and gain an advantage and you either go with it or you get left behind.
 
Footballers got by with eating steak and eggs before games, having a fag at half time and drinking all week. They'd play 50 games a season on crappy pitches with no protection from dangerous tackles.

But these players ended up with crippling injuries, alcoholism and broke.

The game has changed. Players diets are monitored. How far they run in games. Recovery times. Sleep patterns. xG, xA (assists). It's all part of the way teams can develop and gain an advantage and you either go with it or you get left behind.
It's not the same thing. Having a sensible diet, not smoking and restricting the alcohol are to improve the players fitness. GPS tracking gives real data about distance covered etc.

I can see why clubs can find the xG (etc) stuff useful internally - although any Tom, Dick or Harriet in the stands could have told you that we don't take our chances! That doesn't mean it should even be referred to by any manager in post game interviews ('our xG / passing /possession stats are good so don't worry that we haven't got a striker who can hit the target, the xG means it will turn out OK!') for all the reasons mentioned above.
 
It's not the same thing. Having a sensible diet, not smoking and restricting the alcohol are to improve the players fitness. GPS tracking gives real data about distance covered etc.

I can see why clubs can find the xG (etc) stuff useful internally - although any Tom, Dick or Harriet in the stands could have told you that we don't take our chances! That doesn't mean it should even be referred to by any manager in post game interviews ('our xG / passing /possession stats are good so don't worry that we haven't got a striker who can hit the target, the xG means it will turn out OK!') for all the reasons mentioned above.

If it was the only thing mentioned then I'd agree, but Robinson speaks of it whilst discussing various other aspects of our performance which seems entirely reasonable.
 
Because that's the world we live in Scotchers, in all walks of life, huge amounts of money is being wasted on things that are simply not needed.

Like I said in my previous post, teams got by fine without this nonsense for decades, when the game was exciting, intense, full of passion and desire, and performances of players and teams, whilst obviously having tactics and gamelans, were way more natural, instinctive and unpredictable, with more off the cuff moments of magic and genius.

Football is like watching a game of chess these days, certainly at the top level. The whole approach is so clinical and analytical and over complicated these days, and it's made it boring.

I tried to watch Man Utd v West Ham, and Spurs v Chelsea yesterday, games that would usually have been full of passion, excitement and real moments of magic 5-10 years ago, but I was so bored, I turned over, a common theme for a lot of people I speak to these days.

Just because these money bag football clubs spend so much money on this nonsense, doesn't necessarily mean it's good.
I’ve been in my job for a long time and we used to do things quickly and keep track on a bit of paper or a spreadsheet. Often I’d sort it all out myself and it was generally fine. Now there are any number of procedures and armies of bossy girls with all manner of platforms and tracking tools. Must cost a fortune. But it’s the way of the world and as @Scotchegg says you have to do it or be left behind.
 
There's a lot of ignorance about xG being used as a way of analysing performance.

The reality is that it is showing us exactly what most have been saying all season. That is, we get into good position, create chances, but we're not scoring them. Just from the basic highlights we can see;

Against Cambridge, Taylor had 2 very good chances from headers, Whyte put it wide when he could have played it across for a tap in, Bodin scoops it over from a yard out.

Charlton Sykes should have scored but drills it onto Winnall's studs rather than giving him a tap in. Crewe, McNally free header over, Taylor unable to finish a pull back across goal, Dan gets to the ball before keeper and is unlucky not to get his quick boot on target.

Bolton, Whyte horribly fires over from yards out. Wimbledon, Holland through on goal and dithers. Wycombe, Brannagan drags one wide. Cheltenham, Whyte blazes over.

These are just the chances that appear on the 2 minutes of highlights, but I can remember the same again not shown where we've got in great positions that have come to nothing.

This shows that our play in the last third isn't as bad as some think, we're creating some excellent chances. However, poor finishing, poor decision making and some very good goalkeeping is the difference between scoring or not, and ultimately winning or not.

xG is only one part of data analysis that every team use to manage performances, and it does help define exactly where improvements can be made.

Williams and Brannagan were both sharp and in the box onto loose ball in the Charlton game, something that’s not happening lately.
Sykes’s ball was on a plate for a sharper mobile forward.
 
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There's a lot of ignorance about xG being used as a way of analysing performance.

The reality is that it is showing us exactly what most have been saying all season. That is, we get into good position, create chances, but we're not scoring them. Just from the basic highlights we can see;

Against Cambridge, Taylor had 2 very good chances from headers, Whyte put it wide when he could have played it across for a tap in, Bodin scoops it over from a yard out.

Charlton Sykes should have scored but drills it onto Winnall's studs rather than giving him a tap in. Crewe, McNally free header over, Taylor unable to finish a pull back across goal, Dan gets to the ball before keeper and is unlucky not to get his quick boot on target.

Bolton, Whyte horribly fires over from yards out. Wimbledon, Holland through on goal and dithers. Wycombe, Brannagan drags one wide. Cheltenham, Whyte blazes over.

These are just the chances that appear on the 2 minutes of highlights, but I can remember the same again not shown where we've got in great positions that have come to nothing.

This shows that our play in the last third isn't as bad as some think, we're creating some excellent chances. However, poor finishing, poor decision making and some very good goalkeeping is the difference between scoring or not, and ultimately winning or not.

xG is only one part of data analysis that every team use to manage performances, and it does help define exactly where improvements can be made.
Does that mean our players aren’t up to it?
 
you have to do it or be left behind.
That's the key bit. For all we know, KR would rather do without this but the industry as a whole has got themselves involved in a tool which is all geared towards performance excellence. Like it or loath it, it's there and if you are the only club not using it you are at a stark disadvantage so you may as well embrace it and adapt it to help us improve our chances. Statistics are boring to some, but look at the coverage now on Sky before game - their entire conversation is driven by statistics. It's the modern world and Sky are seen as pioneers in how they use it - BT Sport etc looked distinctly basic without this so they had to include it.

I'm somewhere in the middle of this argument I think you have to use it but I wouldn't miss it because football is a game of raw emotion which is what has brought the masses to pay huge money to go and watch. But I don't think that is entirely lost just because of stats - the sport hasn't gone sterile because of performance tracking. It's more sterile due to the fact managers and players can't give an honest opinion anymore or have a joke with each other without the PG ultras in the media looking for ways to get it on a back page. It's more sterile due to the ridiculously high stakes in the game which mean losing/relegation is a catastrophe for some clubs and not a risk worth taking. Mangers losing jobs too easily (ehem, OUFC fans) which means it's difficult for fans to 'buy in' to the project etc. There are so many things that have changed the game, not necessarily all for the better but where it's a case of staying competitive, the club are right to keep up with technology etc.
 
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