Home Match Day Thread 19/09/20 L1 - OUFC v Sunderland

Marked Ox said:
Cooper was very good against Watford and gave the team balance which we definitely lacked yesterday. He will be up and down a bit considering he came from part time football at a lower level just like Sykes and Whyte.

Starting team:

Eastwood
Long Moore Atkinson Elechi
Henry Forde Brannagan
Sykes Taylor Cooper

Agyei to come on off the bench.

Hopefully we have some signings which will increase the options.

As an alternative (it won't happen though) for the defence:

Lofthouse Moore Atkinson Long
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The only thing I would change in your team would be Sykes for Henry and agyei for Henry so Henry on bench agyei RW
 
Shaun Rice said:
Good post. I totally agree about our defence. I’ve been open about my thoughts about long and ruffles and been shot to pieces over it too. But I was hopeful Clare would be good and we were looking for a left back. I was also impressed with Atkinson Pre season But should he be under so much pressure? If I had one defence ;-) of them I would say we’re missing Gorrin who looks like the only midfielder who can play that defensive role.

What I find just a unnerving is our midfield be that centre or wide. Gorrin, Brannagan are the two stand outs but look beyond that and it’s all a bit iffy Sykes and Forde Look like good players who are looking for their role in the team? Inconsistent and a bit lost. Cooper I would say has potential but he’s in the first team in a new country with pressure on his shoulders. Maybe will come good But not ready right now. But the rest blimey! Hanson, McGuane, Kelly, Napa (Yes him). Add the fact that Henry is playing like something is up with him ever since lockdown?
We also have the rawness of Agyei, Asonganyi and Osei again they may come good but first teamers?

its a bloody mess.

We have two forwards who if we put them up for sale would hold interest from every club in this league and some above. But we can’t seem to create Jack s**t for them!
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You could also argue that, as good as Winnall has been, hes a bit of a gamble with his recent fitness issues. I suppose if he was 100% firing on all cylinders then we wouldnt have had a chance of getting him. I do wonder if our recruitment policy has got a bit carried away with itself though, and we have got so obsessed with unearthing the diamonds in the rough that nobody else has spotted that we have started chasing unicorns. We’ve gambled a lot this summer. Sometimes you have play safe even if it is a bit boring. A couple of ‘journeymen’ league 1 players (ie a big ugly CB and a steady organised CM) would be really useful. We’re crying out for a ‘Crosby’ type and a ‘Bulman’ type.
 
Atm I'd like to ban hostage to fortune statements from players like "getting the 3 points from the next game" for the minimum is not to lose/get a clean sheet which became the target last season if I remember.
 
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yellowbow said:
You could also argue that, as good as Winnall has been, hes a bit of a gamble with his recent fitness issues. I suppose if he was 100% firing on all cylinders then we wouldnt have had a chance of getting him. I do wonder if our recruitment policy has got a bit carried away with itself though, and we have got so obsessed with unearthing the diamonds in the rough that nobody else has spotted that we have started chasing unicorns. We’ve gambled a lot this summer. Sometimes you have play safe even if it is a bit boring. A couple of ‘journeymen’ league 1 players (ie a big ugly CB and a steady organised CM) would be really useful. We’re crying out for a ‘Crosby’ type and a ‘Bulman’ type.
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You’re right.

Joe Skarz, Johnny Mullins and Alex MacDonald were just as vital to us as Kemar Roofe, George Baldock and John Lundstram. Ditto Dannie Bulman, Simon Clist, Mark Creighton etc. You absolutely need that mix of experience and know-how alongside sheer talent. Liverpool signed Van Dijk to help share the load with Henderson and won every trophy going inside the next two seasons; Man City lost Vincent Kompany from the dressing room and had their worst season in years immediately. And whether people like it or not, or want to make out like they got lucky, Wycombe won promotion last season simply because their desire to win it was far superior to anyone else’s - they got to the Championship because they decided they were having it once the opportunity was there. None of this is coincidence. You have to want it and you have to have players in the dressing room who won’t settle for other people getting in the way of their success, and those players only get there when they are chosen and allowed to be there. The players don’t sign themselves - if we don’t have the balance right it is because the management team and the recruitment team haven’t done their jobs, and have got their priorities wrong.

Two games against Accrington and Crewe coming up, six points on the table and a chance for everybody in the dressing room to stand up and be counted. Win those games and everything looks different. But even if you don’t win, at least look like you want to, or at least believe that you can. It costs nothing to throw a few punches.

Big week ahead. The question that should be echoing through the training ground today and next week is simply, “Who wants it?”
 
Just watched the highlights after watching the match yesterday, didnt realise how easy it was for both goals to be scored, hardly any challenges on the scorers, the guy that got the second didnt have to be Messi to score, went straight through. Big worry.
 
Thomas/Brock/Jones said:
That is one of the most inexperienced defences we have ever fielded ....along with a mis firing midfield ....Going to be a bit of a different season I think !
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Yeah
yellowbow said:
You could also argue that, as good as Winnall has been, hes a bit of a gamble with his recent fitness issues. I suppose if he was 100% firing on all cylinders then we wouldnt have had a chance of getting him. I do wonder if our recruitment policy has got a bit carried away with itself though, and we have got so obsessed with unearthing the diamonds in the rough that nobody else has spotted that we have started chasing unicorns. We’ve gambled a lot this summer. Sometimes you have play safe even if it is a bit boring. A couple of ‘journeymen’ league 1 players (ie a big ugly CB and a steady organised CM) would be really useful. We’re crying out for a ‘Crosby’ type and a ‘Bulman’ type.
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OMG Bulman I was gutted when he was forced out. So underrated.

Recruitment just seems so odd this season. Let’s be honest in terms of our own players leaving from a team finishing in the play offs we did well. But those that have come in just don’t seem to have added anything.
Browne was the only player with anything like the sort of attacking threat we need and from what I’ve seen so far we don’t have any.
Denis Smith used to say ideally you want all your players in when they return for preseason. We seem to go into each season still half short in key areas. Then mess about finding our best team then play catch up.
 
RyanioBirdio said:
Some late night brain farts seeing as I’ve just finished a bunch of incredibly boring work nonsense:

The defence needs fixing. Badly. A reliable and trustworthy defence is essential to any moderately successful team because it allows the players further forward to free themselves. Your defence doesn’t just stop goals going in, it allows you to score more because of how they enable your midfield and attack to play. Moore has played around 25 EFL games and is now the senior centre back, Atkinson was in non-league until a few months ago, Sean Clare has barely played a game at right back in his life and is essentially being turned into one on the job, and Sam Long is a former centre back turned right back who is now being asked to play left back, because our left back who used to be a centre midfielder is injured. Meanwhile our 34 year old player-coach has done himself a mischief, and the manager claims that our teenage central defensive option is apparently so poor that even teams in non-league won’t touch him. That’s a situation we’ve created for ourselves, by signing these players and choosing not to sign others. If it’s rubbish it’s because we made it rubbish.

We barely had any defenders last season either - we had two right backs (until January when we then had one), three centre backs and one left back. Six defenders; five after Christmas. Atkinson joined in January but immediately went out on loan again and was only briefly recalled to sit on the bench for a couple of games. We somehow kept a clean bill of health bar Mousinho getting injured in late Feb, but then the pandemic shut everything down in early March before anything else happened that made it an issue. We then started this season with six defenders once again, only with Sean Clare instead of Chris Cadden and with Rob Atkinson instead of Rob Dickie. Two undeniable downgrades in terms of the here and now - potential is neither guaranteed to be fulfilled nor remotely relevant in the present. And it isn’t hindsight to say this, because concerns were being raised about this many weeks ago, before Dickie had even been sold let alone not been replaced.

Yet we’ve got how many wingers / forwards? About 9? Taylor, Winnall, Agyei, Osei, Asonganyi, Henry, Hall, Cooper, Napa? And apparently the plan is to plough what’s left of the cap into a tenth option, and bring in inexperienced players on loan to prop up the defence, maybe? Is that seriously the plan?

Sometimes you really do need to simply write your first eleven on a piece of paper, then write the name of a second player underneath each of those names who is the “backup” to that position, until you get to 22 players with each position having two names that you feel are at least good enough to play in a match. You would be amazed how many top level clubs work this way - they genuinely build their squad structures with a marker pen. Obviously some positions might be more evenly matched than others, but you get a squad of footballers by doing this. We however seem to cover that part of the team sheet over and treat the defence like it’s some sort of inconvenience, and pretend that only sexy wingers and forwards exist. At some point we are going to have to at least attempt to have a basic and adequate defence, where one injury or a straight red card doesn’t suddenly plunge things into chaos. We’ve been playing with the bare bones at the back for over a calendar year now - probably more than 18 months if you really trace it back - and when you then start reducing the quality while failing to increase the quantity, it’s not going to prove helpful.

Perhaps most importantly, however, we are going to need to get one or two in who are okay / fairly decent players but are strong leaders. Talkers, organisers, communicators and battlers who are up for getting their kit dirty. There’s too much emphasis on, and obsession with, this notion of beautiful technical mavericks being the be all and end all. You need some players in there who can actually have a bloody scrap, and that isn’t anything to do with age. They don’t need to be 30+ and on their last legs, they just need to have hair on their chest and not be afraid to point a few fingers, and ruffle a few feathers. That needs to be allowed to happen - we can’t just keep signing quiet little boys who won’t talk back, while blindly chasing some purist fantasy where only swashbuckling football is allowed, and the players and manager blow kisses to their adoring fans at the final whistle, who in turn throw yellow roses onto the pitch while screaming “forza, forza!” No football team at any level is ever successful without those individuals, right up to the Liverpool’s and Man City’s of the world. You need to have a couple of players who really want it, and who aren’t afraid to pin their own team mates against the wall if they aren’t pulling their weight, let alone go eyeball to eyeball with the opposition.

Yes, the league season is two games old, and we will probably be ‘fine’ by the time we’ve played 46. We could just as easily win the next two games, and that would be ‘fine’ as well. But we haven’t won a proper game inside 90 minutes, bar the tinpot reserve game, since Shrewsbury. We have drawn four (Pompey x2, Wimbledon and Watford in the league cup) and lost three (Wembley, two league games). We can’t start every single season by spluttering through the first 8-10 games and being lucky to average a point per match, and then hoping that when we finally get going the pack hasn’t gotten too far in front. At some point someone has to go, “There is a flaw in the design here, if this happens every season then something is wrong in the way it’s set up at the start.”

There is still time to turn a few dials and sort a few things out, but they do need turning.
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Brilliant.. 100% right.
 
Having slept on it here's how I see things.

Firstly I hate losing, hate poor performances just as much, and am currently feeling thoroughly pissed off with life because of yesterday's result and performance (and to a lesser extent the Lincoln result too).

BUT...........

Has Karl Robinson become a bad manager all of a sudden? No.
Have James Henry, Cameron Branagan, Liam Kelly, Matty Taylor, Mark Sykes etc etc all become bad players overnight? No.
Have we signed a host of bad players and our much lauded recruitment department become suddenly incompetent? No.
Do all of our players "not give a s**t"? No, of course that's not true.

So, a few thoughts on the situation and possible reasons and outcome, and this is by no means me making excuses or sugar coating anything.

I think we have a fairly obvious full back problem at the moment, exacerbated by the injury to Ruffels and Claire needing time to bed in. The full back situation will not be helping the new centre back partnership to gel either.

I think Atkinson will go on to be a great player, and has already shown some signs of what's to come. But the lad is 21 and has had a baptism of fire over the last couple of weeks. He's been punished for pretty much his only mistake at Lincoln, by them scoring their first goal, held his nerve to carry on playing his game, and then had the ridiculous red card (thankfully rescinded) all on his League debut! He's then had to play the next League game, when it would probably have been preferred to give him a break, and to bed him in gradually. But Mousinho's injury prevented this.

From what I've seen of Sean Claire, I think there's a really good player in there, and quite likely a good wing back. But the lad is playing in a very makeshift backline, which is exposing every little mistake. Mistakes which we/he would probably have got away with in a more settled unit. I think there has been precious little protection in front of him (and the rest of the backline) too. For people to say after one League game (don't forget he never started at Lincoln) that he's never going to make it is frankly ludicrous, even by the low standards of some of this board's posters!!!

I also think McGuane looks a terrific player, and I'm very sure that people will be wanting us to sign him permanently by the end of his loan. He looked very good against the teams that allowed us to play a bit, but struggled to adapt to the Wimbledon and Lincoln tactics. I'm very sure that he'll adapt and come good. I think a fit Alex Gorrin helps both McGuane and our defence look 100% better.

I like the looks of Cooper, but think he'll take a little time to adjust, as Sykes did. I hope he's afforded the time. Likewise Ossie Yaw, who was signed as one for the future but has had to play a bit more than was expected. Some might say that he's actually forced himself into selection with his pre-season performances.

I think we're suffering from a combination of injuries, an incomplete transfer window made 100 times worse by the ludicrous wage cap restrictions, and I do think there's a hangover from the way last season ended. Added to that we've played two League games against sides that set up in a way we've previously struggled against, which is something we'll have to get used to as I think we'll see more teams set up this way against us. We're still trying to find the right formula but don't yet have all of the pieces in place, and some of the pieces we do have in place have broken!

I'm very sure we'll rectify these things. I'm sure we'll bring in the players we need. I'm sure our new players will bed in over time. I'm sure most of our better players from last season will re-find their form. I'm sure our injured players will recover. I'm sure once all of these things happen we'll start to move through the gears and up the table. We've played TWO League games for Christ's sake!

Am I happy? No. Is it time to call for people to be bombed out or sacked? Absolutely not. Is it time to panic? No. Is it time to trust in our process and get behind the players, manager, and club? Absofuckinglutely!!!!!

Edit: I'll also add that I do think the management may not have got every decision 100% right and I think Karl's comments after the game yesterday indicate that he's aware of this. That he seems to be indicating that action will be taken to rectify these things is a move in the right direction and a world away from the apparent stubbornness early on in his tenure.
 
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RyanioBirdio said:
You’re right.

Joe Skarz, Johnny Mullins and Alex MacDonald were just as vital to us as Kemar Roofe, George Baldock and John Lundstram. Ditto Dannie Bulman, Simon Clist, Mark Creighton etc. You absolutely need that mix of experience and know-how alongside sheer talent. Liverpool signed Van Dijk to help share the load with Henderson and won every trophy going inside the next two seasons; Man City lost Vincent Kompany from the dressing room and had their worst season in years immediately. And whether people like it or not, or want to make out like they got lucky, Wycombe won promotion last season simply because their desire to win it was far superior to anyone else’s - they got to the Championship because they decided they were having it once the opportunity was there. None of this is coincidence. You have to want it and you have to have players in the dressing room who won’t settle for other people getting in the way of their success, and those players only get there when they are chosen and allowed to be there. The players don’t sign themselves - if we don’t have the balance right it is because the management team and the recruitment team haven’t done their jobs, and have got their priorities wrong.

Two games against Accrington and Crewe coming up, six points on the table and a chance for everybody in the dressing room to stand up and be counted. Win those games and everything looks different. But even if you don’t win, at least look like you want to, or at least believe that you can. It costs nothing to throw a few punches.

Big week ahead. The question that should be echoing through the training ground today and next week is simply, “Who wants it?”
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I agree, I remember last season when we played Rotherham at home, we lost 3-1, and what struck me most of all was how they had a team of senior seasoned pro's, who were big, physical players, who clearly wanted it more than we did, and they were simply too strong for us, and the game was over by half time, and I remember saying at the time, that that's what will be the difference between them getting promoted and us not, and unfortunately, I was right, talent and quality alone is not enough, you also need fight, desire, and physical and mental strength as well, something that we didn't have enough of last season, and doesn't really exist at all in this squad.

If you look at most of our squad, they're all very small, thin and flimsy, and get outmuscled a lot, and none of them seem to have the desire to get stuck in and really fight and have a go, we need some beasts to lead the charge!!
 
Colin B said:
Having slept on it here's how I see things.

Firstly I hate losing, hate poor performances just as much, and am currently feeling thoroughly pissed off with life because of yesterday's result and performance (and to a lesser extent the Lincoln result too).

BUT...........

Has Karl Robinson become a bad manager all of a sudden? No.
Have James Henry, Cameron Branagan, Liam Kelly, Matty Taylor, Mark Sykes etc etc all become bad players overnight? No.
Have we signed a host of bad players and our much lauded recruitment department become suddenly incompetent? No.
Do all of our players "not give a s**t"? No, of course that's not true.

So, a few thoughts on the situation and possible reasons and outcome, and this is by no means me making excuses or sugar coating anything.

I think we have a fairly obvious full back problem at the moment, exacerbated by the injury to Ruffels and Claire needing time to bed in. The full back situation will not be helping the new centre back partnership to gel either.

I think Atkinson will go on to be a great player, and has already shown some signs of what's to come. But the lad is 21 and has had a baptism of fire over the last couple of weeks. He's been punished for pretty much his only mistake at Lincoln, by them scoring their first goal, held his nerve to carry on playing his game, and then had the ridiculous red card (thankfully rescinded) all on his League debut! He's then had to play the next League game, when it would probably have been preferred to give him a break, and to bed him in gradually. But Mousinho's injury prevented this.

From what I've seen of Sean Claire, I think there's a really good player in there, and quite likely a good wing back. But the lad is playing in a very makeshift backline, which is exposing every little mistake. Mistakes which we/he would probably have got away with in a more settled unit. I think there has been precious little protection in front of him (and the rest of the backline) too. For people to say after one League game (don't forget he never played at Lincoln) that he's never going to make it is frankly ludicrous, even by the low standards of some of this board's posters!!!

I also think McGuane looks a terrific player, and I'm very sure that people will be wanting us to sign him permanently by the end of his loan. He looked very good against the teams that allowed us to play a bit, but struggled to adapt to the Wimbledon and Lincoln tactics. I'm very sure that he'll adapt and come good. I think a fit Alex Gorrin helps both McGuane and our defence look 100% better.

I like the looks of Cooper, but think he'll take a little time to adjust, as Sykes did. I hope he's afforded the time. Likewise Ossie Yaw, who was signed as one for the future but has had to play a bit more than was expected. Some might say that he's actually forced himself into selection with his pre-season performances.

I think we're suffering from a combination of injuries, an incomplete transfer window made 100 times worse by the ludicrous wage cap restrictions, and I do think there's a hangover from the way last season ended. Added to that we've played two League games against sides that set up in a way we've previously struggled against, which is something we'll have to get used to as I think we'll see more teams set up this way against us. We're still trying to find the right formula but don't yet have all of the pieces in place, and some of the pieces we do have in place have broken!

I'm very sure we'll rectify these things. I'm sure we'll bring in the players we need. I'm sure our new players will bed in over time. I'm sure most of our better players from last season will re-find their form. I'm sure our injured players will recover. I'm sure once all of these things happen we'll start to move through the gears and up the table.

Am I happy? No. Is it time to call for people to be bombed out or sacked? Absolutely not. Is it time to panic? No. Is it time to trust in our process and get behind the players, manager, and club? Absofuckinglutely!!!!!
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Written so much better than the post I made, but couldn't agree more.

We need to remember that Cadden started with some questionable defending last season, and Gorrin dropped deeper to provide more cover. Moore, as well, made a few errors and Mous came in to give more stability. Woodburn looked weak, but was beginning to find his feet before his injury.

Our recruitment model is based on finding rough diamonds and polishing them. That means that we have to accept that they will be works in progress, and Robinson has repeatedly asked for a little patience.

We have to trust the recruitment team, Robinson, Shorty and others to have found the right players, and find a way to get the best from them. And we have to trust in the players themselves, many of whom were tearing league 1 apart only 6 months ago.
 
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Said it last week, still feel the same this week. An experienced central defender should be the priority. I think we can get away without a left back because Ruffles will play most of the games even though he is injured at the moment. The left winger is obvious.
 
If you want our Model then you need to accept that sometimes it's not going to be all rosy,When Mapp was here he referred to others fishing in the same waters and that adjustments were needed.The constant turnover of the squad,filling gaps with loans and then having to find replacements each season was partly the reason we struggled and flirted with relegation for a couple of seasons. You have to get extremely lucky that the conveyor belt keeps churning out the gems season after season and then when they do accept that they are unlikely to be hanging around for long.
it's fine saying we only won the odd game in 90 minutes but conveniently forgetting that our cup runs continued after penalty shootouts or else you may not have seen the likes of Man City and remember winning brings more confidence however it is achieved. Having witnessed those cup runs many easily dismissed the League cup this season because of the £ sign but i repeat winning breeds confidence. We had the same reaction a few seasons back when we'd bowed out of both cups by christmas.
Yes enjoy the likes of Baldock, Roofe etc etc but keep in mind if you want our model then it wont always be like that.
 
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Scotchegg said:
Written so much better than the post I made, but couldn't agree more.

We need to remember that Cadden started with some questionable defending last season, and Gorrin dropped deeper to provide more cover. Moore, as well, made a few errors and Mous came in to give more stability. Woodburn looked weak, but was beginning to find his feet before his injury.

Our recruitment model is based on finding rough diamonds and polishing them. That means that we have to accept that they will be works in progress, and Robinson has repeatedly asked for a little patience.

We have to trust the recruitment team, Robinson, Shorty and others to have found the right players, and find a way to get the best from them. And we have to trust in the players themselves, many of whom were tearing league 1 apart only 6 months ago.
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I'm all for finding rough diamonds and polishing them, and having players here who are a "work in progress" however....

The current rough diamonds, or "works in progress" or players simply lacking game time and fitness are:
Clare
Atkinson
Jones
Elechi
Mcguane
Kelly
Osei
Cooper
Winnall
Asonganyi
Agyei
Napa

Add to that players like Hall, who needs to managed very carefully due to his knees, and Hanson, who is never fit, and thats 14 players in our squad of 22, who are not currently at the levels of quality, fitness or experience we need them to be at, in order to take us to the next level, and thats pretty bloody shocking!

I have been raising these concerns all pre season, and honestly haven't been this concerned since Clotet was here.
 
I dunno why we’re all getting so stressed under KR we always start slowly give it 5 games and see how it changes lol it took us 7 league games last season to get our first league win against tranmere 3-0 before that we drew 2 games Sunderland 1-1 and Coventry 3-3 and we lost 2-1 bpool - 2-4 Burton - 3-1 Bristol rovers and 2-1 Fleetwood so on that basis we might get our first win against mk dons on 20th October ?
 
oufc1991 said:
I dunno why we’re all getting so stressed under KR we always start slowly give it 5 games and see how it changes lol it took us 7 league games last season to get our first league win against tranmere 3-0 before that we drew 2 games Sunderland 1-1 and Coventry 3-3 and we lost 2-1 bpool - 2-4 Burton - 3-1 Bristol rovers and 2-1 Fleetwood so on that basis we might get our first win against mk dons on 20th October ?
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But we shouldnt thats the point. It stinks of poor preparation, poor recruitment and tactical inflexibility.
 
Agree with much that's been written about the defence here, and it's glaringly obvious that a new (preferably more experienced) CB is needed, as well as cover for Josh Ruffles. Sean Clare was also painfully exposed against Sunderland, and whilst it's too soon to say, if he ends up like a right footed Luke Garbutt we will only really have two full backs.

However, I find that there is a strange lack of balance in the attacking positions as well, despite the fact that we have a lot of players in these areas. Cooper is the only natural left winger, and has demonstrated in patches he could be a decent option. Sykes, and particularly Henry, are much more effective centrally in my view despite having both been deployed out wide. Agyei was last season's third choice striker who's only role now seems to be as an impact sub out wide. Anthony Forde has been used as a full back, winger and central midfielder. None of them are bad players, but they all either have a lack of experience or a degree of uncertainty as to what their best position or role in the team actually is. Aside from this, there's also Rob Hall and Napa-both of whom were loaned out to league 2 last season.

As for the strikers, I think Taylor and Winnall have the potential to be up there with the best in league 1, but it's hard to get them firing with a complete lack of service. As for Osei Yaw, it remains to be seen if he'll be an effective addition or the French Jon Obika.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that, so far, the squad has been somewhat clumsily assembled and looks unbalanced. However, I have no doubt that a few additions in the correct areas (CB, LB, Winger) will go along way to addressing this. The problem is this may take time, and perhaps hinge on potential outgoings- Napa and Hanson perhaps? In the meantime, those that are available are going to have to dig deep and find a way against Accy and Crewe, otherwise we'll find ourselves in the unenviable position of playing catch up. I remain confident that even with injuries the current group are capable of doing so, but an early win to kickstart the season is needed sooner rather than later.
 
Sometimes as fans we can go very ott one way or the other but as i said after Watford

Joel Cooper is the Next Joey Beauchamp

Also with all this doom and gloom it was only a few days ago that many of our considered Fringe players put in a decent performance against a Premiership squad (albeit now in the Championship ) and it could easily have been another West Ham result... and nobody questioned the Manager Players or redruitment at that time.
 
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