National News The Brexit Thread 🇬🇧đŸ‡ȘđŸ‡ș

So Ryan, are you involved in non EU and EU countries?
Presumably non EU countries will be the same for artists going to their countries and ttem coming here?
My primary market of focus is actually the US rather than the UK - this is merely where I happen to work out of. I do however still ultimately work for a UK company and am a UK citizen since birth. Around 70% of my dealings are US-centric with approximately 20% EU, with the remaining 10% covering what would be classed as ROW (Japan and Australia mostly). Give or take - that’s the best way I can roughly break down my day to day.

The simple answer is - we will be unable to ‘be the same going there’ as we were before. We were classed as an EU market and status holder for the last 40 odd years - the USA as well as any other non-EU state does not, nor has it ever for the better part of the last half a century, seen us as being separate from that, in absolutely any way, shape or form. We are just another member state of a very large club to them as far as all the logistics and regulations go. In terms of the business ins and outs we are the same to them in terms of rules and regulations as Greece, Finland or anybody else - we are just another EU cardholder. Culturally we have a lot of status and prestige if you will, but that’s now how the law and borders work. It isn’t run on oooohs and aaaahs, it’s run on cold, hard legislation, and we are about to become a third country in that regard. This year we retain ‘transitionary’ status which is why “nothing has changed” as some people would scream at you. We haven’t left yet, technically, so of course it doesn’t look like anything has changed. We have vacated our seat but for the year 2020 we are still beholden to every last rule, only we have no say in making them, and all non-EU markets as a result of this transition period agree to treat us as though we’re still in the club. So for now, things are operating as usual. However, as of the end of this year, nobody knows what is happening. It will depend entirely on the trade deal that is done, if indeed there is one at all, and things will change basically overnight as a result. It’s impossible to predict to the decimal point because it’s a blank canvas right now, but in terms of everything we know and are being told from the absolute top of the corporate ladder - and do not forget, the music industry is not a small or insignificant one what so ever, we’re worth a god damn fortune - our island is about to become a royal pain in the ass.

What’s been going on for some months, and is continuing to happen, is that basically every major record label (who now own virtually all of the major merchandising companies themselves, by the way) are moving territorial headquarter status to Ireland or Holland, primarily. Which means that billions in corporate tax is about to leave the UK. Sure, we will still pay tax on UK operations alone which will go to the UK government, but because HQ status is leaving for other countries we will no longer be collecting revenues from other markets, which we in turn pay into the British economy. We’ve basically just cut a great big cake down the middle, sent the other half somewhere in Europe and are going “This is just as good as before!” It factually isn’t, but nobody will notice that as from the outside our office is still where it always was, and the lights are still on. So it must be fine and nothing can have changed, right?

Touring companies in particular are about to be smashed on all this. The two powerhouses in touring logistics for the Euro market are the UK and Germany, and Germany is now getting much more of the business that we used to get as their permits and paperwork are good across 95% of the places that an act will go when they tour Europe, and will remain so moving forward. Nearly every country they will perform in is in the EU and the one or two that aren’t (Switzerland and Norway usually) have LONG since established deals with every country in the world. Because we don’t have any deals what so ever in place beyond the end of the year and there are zero indications of what the outcome will be, people are simply hiring the German companies as they know they can pass cleanly and easily through all the territories, as their country of origin is and will remain an EU state. The tour buses, the arctic lorries, the riggers, the drivers, the caterers - your average arena tour has well over 100 crew members and will include anywhere from 10-20 buses and trucks in total. I was actually on a tour by an American band last year that contained 21 trucks and nearly 180 crew staff, because the production was wild. And everybody involved in that was very openly and honestly saying “This is the last time we’ll be using these guys, we’ll be going with the Germans moving forward”. So the UK can kiss goodbye to an absolute fortune in revenues. UK production riggers are actually starting to move to Germany en masse as there’s enough work already moving over there to support them, while it’s already starting to shrink here. Next year we are looking at a huge reduction in business being given to UK based touring companies as the problems are going to be both costly and potentially hugely delayed. A touring production cannot afford uncertainty or delays in any way, so people would rather have a company that they know can effortlessly fulfil the vast majority of a tour route, rather than one that potentially can’t get off the island on time, and which needs half a dozen trade deals because even if it gets into an EU state it then needs to pass into Norway, and Switzerland, and Ukraine, and so on. UK companies have no deals in place that they can point to and therefore price to - German ones are totally sorted bar the UK. And the European market as a whole is worth more collectively than the UK one is, so the Germans are winning out. Hands down.

Furthermore, UK artists as well as the labels (who have bought up most of the merch companies, don’t forget) are now starting to move their corporate registered addresses to Europe. Bands that are British, who live here and are from here and all that jazz, are now moving their registrations to other countries. A band is a company, quite often multiple companies. They’ll have one company that represents their touring, one that represents their merchandise, one that represents their royalties and publishing - whether a band is playing to 200 people or 20,000 people each night, the band members are employees of their own registered businesses. And those businesses need to ultimately be registered to a country. Well, they’re all moving, and with it goes the tax revenue. If a band’s touring and merchandising companies move their registered addresses to, let’s say Dublin, and they get their shirts printed either there or somewhere in Germany, the merchandise that’s being sold on tour doesn’t need the paperwork because it is EU goods. So that means infinitely less goods being produced and manufactured in the UK, which is where we currently print most of our wares, because now it isn’t going to be an EU state nor will it remain regulated as one like it is during 2020. Any goods manufactured in this country can’t be shipped freely around the continent, so guess what? We just won’t make them here. So that’s costing jobs as well as an eye watering amount of tax that we no longer need to pay to the British coffers.

There really isn’t enough time and space to get into it all on a forum like this, but to anybody who wants to think this amounts to nothing more than “needing to fill out some extra forms”:

1) It’s so much more complex than that - the above doesn’t even cover half of it. The entire British music and entertainment industry is about to get kicked in the pods, and there is NO WAY of preparing for it bar just moving as much of it back to the EU as we can.

2) We don’t need to do anything, and we won’t either. Shove your forms where the sun doesn’t shine. We’re moving the operations to outside of the UK, we’re reassigning headquarter status, we’re re-registering limited company addresses, and with it we are taking billions in taxation revenues with us. All because nobody can even tell us what the hell happens next, because we threw the parachute out of the plane before jumping out after it. Not for us, thanks.

So people can say it’s as simple as they like, and they can walk past our offices and see us through the glass and go “See? Nothing has changed! What a load of rubbish!” But we’re the ones moving the work and the revenues out of Britain and away from British based enterprises, and people like me are the ones who can factually and categorically tell whoever wants to know that it isn’t the same or anywhere close to it. Then again, it’s all just scaremongering, isn’t it?
 
A friend of mine who works internationally as a sound technician posted this on the 1st Feb supporting an international artist that we/most will know.

In the interest of being open and honest they did get in (after paying the border police) and they did say that it was more as a result of the people taking the P**s but it does show (as they said) how people are looking at ways of exploiting things as they stand.

people will always look at finding ways to make a few quid and it may well be coincidence/unlucky who they stumbled upon but they certainly don’t seem too enthusiastic about things to come.

Like I said there’s nothing to say that this wouldn’t have happened with the same border checks 5 years ago if it had been the same crowd. I guess that’s up to everyone to decide for themselves.
 

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A friend of mine who works internationally as a sound technician posted this on the 1st Feb supporting an international artist that we/most will know.

In the interest of being open and honest they did get in (after paying the border police) and they did say that it was more as a result of the people taking the P**s but it does show (as they said) how people are looking at ways of exploiting things as they stand.

people will always look at finding ways to make a few quid and it may well be coincidence/unlucky who they stumbled upon but they certainly don’t seem too enthusiastic about things to come.

Like I said there’s nothing to say that this wouldn’t have happened with the same border checks 5 years ago if it had been the same crowd. I guess that’s up to everyone to decide for themselves.
You just wait until the end of the year when the legislation is stacked against the likes of your mate. Good luck.

Like I already said, they’ll just use the Germans. The artist just wants to get around on time - they will stop using the British company before they stop going to Italy. Fanciful in the extreme for anybody to think that they’ll cut out an entire country before they simply employ a different crew.
 
And a flip side to the concern about artist`s etc........
I spent too many years in the meat trade, it is a skilled job (done well) and the salaries were just beginning to head in the right direction (1970`s/80`s) until large numbers of EU citizens started arriving.
The excess supply of labour then forced the salaries down, we used to be on "job & finish" on night shifts. We would be done and away by 2.00-3.00am.
As soon as the migrant workforce arrived the hourly rate collapsed to not much more than MW over time, and the "job" started taking longer with shifts not finishing until 7.30-8.00am.
From a business point of view they ended up paying out more for longer hours and more people as they threw folk at the job thinking it was lack of numbers that was the problem, it wasn`t, they needed the shifts to last longer on a lower rate. Woe betide anyone who tried "getting on with it".
And that problem has spread across many industries from construction through to warehousing, logistics etc.
There is a fine balance to be had in labour markets and any freedom of movement, and a similar balance to be had as to where businesses pay their dues.
At least now we will have the freedom to make those choice`s rather than abiding by the rules of others.
 
That's a brilliant post. FWIW, several bands I follow have already said they're postponing European tours that were scheduled for next year because they don't know what the situation will be.

I also have a number of friends in various industries who have already suffered. One whose company went bankrupt, others that have had their profits seriously impacted. Still, the argument's done with, so best I just get over it.
 
From the same article.......................

Instead, in just 10 months’ time, anyone from the EU seeking to perform will need to:

* Apply for a visa to enter the UK, at a cost of ÂŁ244 for each group member.

* Provide proof, 90 days before applying, that they have nearly £1,000 in savings and so can support themselves, unless they are ‘A-rated’.

* Provide a certificate of sponsorship from an event organiser - who must take responsibility for them - or a letter of invitation in some circumstances.

Seems pretty clear to me?
I`ve completed enough Visa`s for holidays etc, certificates of sponsorship are common enough in many countries, and I`m sure there are several countries that request evidence of liquidity alongside applications for working visa`s?
What am I missing?
 
Seems pretty clear to me?
I`ve completed enough Visa`s for holidays etc, certificates of sponsorship are common enough in many countries, and I`m sure there are several countries that request evidence of liquidity alongside applications for working visa`s?
What am I missing?
You are missing training on when to use an apostrophe for one. Remove that key from your keyboard until you can use it responsibly.
 
You are missing training on when to use an apostrophe for one. Remove that key from your keyboard until you can use it responsibly.

Away back to your pedants lair........... :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Back to the point...... what is so difficult about completing a visa? Or visas. ?
 
From the same article.......................

Instead, in just 10 months’ time, anyone from the EU seeking to perform will need to:

* Apply for a visa to enter the UK, at a cost of ÂŁ244 for each group member.

* Provide proof, 90 days before applying, that they have nearly £1,000 in savings and so can support themselves, unless they are ‘A-rated’.

* Provide a certificate of sponsorship from an event organiser - who must take responsibility for them - or a letter of invitation in some circumstances.

Seems pretty clear to me?
I`ve completed enough Visa`s for holidays etc, certificates of sponsorship are common enough in many countries, and I`m sure there are several countries that request evidence of liquidity alongside applications for working visa`s?
What am I missing?
Lets say an up and coming band with five members and a crew of say three, plan to tour England/ mainland Britain, it would cost them ÂŁ1952 in visa fees, they would all require having a bank balance of ÂŁ1k , plus an outlay for 8 work permits albeit short term ones, not all that likely tbh with a new/young band with only a small independent record label (if any) behind them, embarking on a foreign tour presumably any savings will have been spent in advance of the tour on upgrading equiptment/ instruments, - then the tour itself, some of the dates on the toilet circuit (low level) tour will only at best provide a small rider (food/drink) without a fee being paid, if its first or second( low level) UK tour at some/many of the dates the band will very likely be playing to an audience consisting of one man and his dog, neither will contribute much to the bands coffers via entry fee or merchandise. Most bands/acts visiting the Uk on tour when they start out are very lucky if, under the current rules & regulations, when all the sums are done, break even on the tour. Under the (proposed)incoming rules and regulations in reality a tour in the UK would be financial suicide...... knock on effect being entertainment venues closing even faster than they are now, putting even more currently (self) employed people working at that ground floor end of the entertainment industry- promoters, sound engineers, lighting engineers, pub/venue licencees, bar staff etc- out of work, and the progression of one of the arts, live music seriously crippled by a dissapearing infastructure for acts/bands to learn their trade and develop on their aim of attaining international success.


And the fact that visiting other countries as a holiday maker visa wise is considerably a different process to those needing visas to cover short working visit ( with work permits etc a neccessity)

Apart from than that, youre not missing much @Essexyellows ;)
 
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Lets say an up and coming band with five members and a crew of say three, plan to tour England/ mainland Britain, it would cost them ÂŁ1952 in visa fees, they would all require having a bank balance of ÂŁ1k , plus an outlay for 8 work permits albeit short term ones, not all that likely tbh with a new/young band with only a small independent record label (if any) behind them, embarking on a foreign tour presumably any savings will have been spent in advance of the tour on upgrading equiptment/ instruments, - then the tour itself, some of the dates on the toilet circuit (low level) tour will only at best provide a small rider (food/drink) without a fee being paid, if its first or second( low level) UK tour at some/many of the dates the band will very likely be playing to an audience consisting of one man and his dog, neither will contribute much to the bands coffers via entry fee or merchandise. Most bands/acts visiting the Uk on tour when they start out are very lucky if, under the current rules & regulations, when all the sums are done, break even on the tour. Under the (proposed)incoming rules and regulations in reality a tour in the UK would be financial suicide...... knock on effect being entertainment venues closing even faster than they are now, putting even more currently (self) employed people working at that ground floor end of the entertainment industry- promoters, sound engineers, lighting engineers, pub/venue licencees, bar staff etc- out of work, and the progression of one of the arts, live music seriously crippled by a dissapearing infastructure for acts/bands to learn their trade and develop on their aim of attaining international success.


And the fact that visiting other countries as a holiday maker visa wise is considerably a different process to those needing visas to cover short working visit ( with work permits etc a neccessity)

Apart from than that, youre not missing much @Essexyellows ;)

I know plenty of "up & coming bands" whom this will effect.
However bands on the circuit working their way up have always had to struggle.
I put more blame on those promoters & management taking an ever larger slice of the cake. ;)

There is also the way people consume their entertainment to consider, many kids these days will flick through youtube/insta etc before even chancing parting with ÂŁ20 to see a live band. Whereas those older live music lovers will take a punt, I am the "one man" (no dog!). ?
You probably know far better than I the attrition rate of those who try (the many) compared to those who make it (very few).
And, as with any job there isn`t an entitlement to success or a path to wealth & riches.
 
I know plenty of "up & coming bands" whom this will effect.
However bands on the circuit working their way up have always had to struggle.
I put more blame on those promoters & management taking an ever larger slice of the cake. ;)

There is also the way people consume their entertainment to consider, many kids these days will flick through youtube/insta etc before even chancing parting with ÂŁ20 to see a live band. Whereas those older live music lovers will take a punt, I am the "one man" (no dog!). ?
You probably know far better than I the attrition rate of those who try (the many) compared to those who make it (very few).
And, as with any job there isn`t an entitlement to success or a path to wealth & riches.
under the incoming laws therell be less, many less bands to go and see - when able (work allowing) I try to get to see live up and coming bands ( often in Oxford) , sometimes I am the proverbial one man at the occasional gig,( & it depends if I take someone of the opposite sex/ gender (for pc types) and her general demeanor whether theres a dog there with me too :oops: :sneaky:;) )
 
On the face of it, the restrictions in other areas show that the system has been rightly amended for musicians and they are hardly onerous - but a sea change from now where it's a lot easier and less work or organisation. I'm sure seasonal workers would see that and wonder why they have to comply with more onerous rules.

How many artists will this affect? Hundreds or into the Thousands?
 
On the face of it, the restrictions in other areas show that the system has been rightly amended for musicians and they are hardly onerous - but a sea change from now where it's a lot easier and less work or organisation. I'm sure seasonal workers would see that and wonder why they have to comply with more onerous rules.

How many artists will this affect? Hundreds or into the Thousands?
thousands upon thousands, including those employed one way or another by the bottom end of the live music entertainment industry
 
I love it when people over simplify things, decide that they know better than people who spend their lives doing something for a career, and conclude that the way they think it works, or that it should work, is what happens. It’s mental to see. Reality truly is yesterday’s accessory, isn’t it? We’ve had enough of experts, after all. They might tell us that something we believe is wrong or isn’t true, after all.

I also enjoy seeing people say that because you apparently CAN spend time, effort and money just doing this, that and the other to get around something repeatedly - even if it were that black and white, which it isn’t - it means that you have to, or will at least choose to. Erm... no. That’s not how choice works. You can set whatever rules you like, but if people don’t like them then they don’t have to play the game. That’s what seems to be missed so often nowadays. If I don’t like your price I don’t have to pay it. Why would I pay more, or have a more complex deal, when I can do it cheaper and not have to jump through hoops every five minutes?

No... I think business and industry will in fact decide to go where it likes, and in this case we are and will, because I’m one of the many people in the meetings and on the conference calls when the decisions are made. So by all means, continue to see the lights in my office being on, and see the shows still happening, and conclude that it means nothing changed. I don’t blame you, because you never saw the garment printers in Leeds when it had twice as many people working there as it does now, because now we only print the merchandise there that’s sold at the 6 UK shows, rather than the 26 shows that made up the entire European tour, before we started printing the shirts for the other 20 shows in Leipzig as they can move freely without customs checks and declarations, or additional charges and tariffs. You won’t know that the dozens and dozens of people behind the stage who you don’t see are either Europeans or that if they are British, they’re only working the 8 shows that make up the UK leg rather than working the 20-odd shows that makes up the entire European run, because now they can’t freely and easily just drive wherever they want. You won’t know that this is why the company isn’t even half the size it was before and therefore employs far less people, paying far less tax both individually and in a corporate sense. You also won’t know that the band standing onstage, even if they’re British, is paying half the amount into the UK economy that they did before, because although that shirt you just bought is subject to British sales tax and might even have been made here, the merchandise subsidiary that facilitated it all in terms of corporate taxation is now registered in Dublin, and so the taxable income that the company makes as a whole is no longer being paid on these shores. You probably won’t notice that the price on your ticket just went up £5 or £10 compared to last time either, because now the UK promoter has to be treated separately to the rest of the European territories within its own company’s global financial structure, meaning it now has separate, individually defined costs that are calculated in a different column on a different spreadsheet, so it isn’t included in the overall cost of the European tour as it was previously and which is how things like ticket prices are calculated and set in the first place. It’s also having to use different companies instead of one - two logistics companies with two crews from different territories, two lots of merchandisers and fulfilment companies and so on - so the rates have gone up as now they’re not getting the same deals that they did before for ‘bulk booking’.

The good news is that I’m about to go into a meeting where I can tell people that we’ve got it all wrong, and that there’s a football forum where we can learn how things really work and how we can easily just get on with it like nothing happened, as told to us by people who have NO idea at all how it works. I smell a promotion ?
 
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I love it when people over simplify things, decide that they know better than people who spend their lives doing something for a career, and conclude that the way they think it works, or that it should work, is what happens. It’s mental to see. Reality truly is yesterday’s accessory, isn’t it? We’ve had enough of experts, after all. They might tell us that something we believe is wrong or isn’t true, after all.

I also enjoy seeing people say that because you apparently CAN spend time, effort and money just doing this, that and the other to get around something repeatedly - even if it were that black and white, which it isn’t - it means that you have to, or will at least choose to. Erm... no. That’s not how choice works. You can set whatever rules you like, but if people don’t like them then they don’t have to play the game. That’s what seems to be missed so often nowadays. If I don’t like your price I don’t have to pay it. Why would I pay more, or have a more complex deal, when I can do it cheaper and not have to jump through hoops every five minutes?

No... I think business and industry will in fact decide to go where it likes, and in this case we are and will, because I’m one of the many people in the meetings and on the conference calls when the decisions are made. So by all means, continue to see the lights in my office being on, and see the shows still happening, and conclude that it means nothing changed. I don’t blame you, because you never saw the garment printers in Leeds when it had twice as many people working there as it does now, because now we only print the merchandise there that’s sold at the 6 UK shows, rather than the 26 shows that made up the entire European tour, before we started printing the shirts for the other 20 shows in Leipzig as they can move freely without customs checks and declarations, or additional charges and tariffs. You won’t know that the dozens and dozens of people behind the stage who you don’t see are either Europeans or that if they are British, they’re only working the 8 shows that make up the UK leg rather than working the 20-odd shows that makes up the entire European run, because now they can’t freely and easily just drive wherever they want. You won’t know that this is why the company isn’t even half the size it was before and therefore employs far less people, paying far less tax both individually and in a corporate sense. You also won’t know that the band standing onstage, even if they’re British, is paying half the amount into the UK economy that they did before, because although that shirt you just bought is subject to British sales tax and might even have been made here, the merchandise subsidiary that facilitated it all in terms of corporate taxation is now registered in Dublin, and so the taxable income that the company makes as a whole is no longer being paid on these shores. You probably won’t notice that the price on your ticket just went up £5 or £10 compared to last time either, because now the UK promoter has to be treated separately to the rest of the European territories within its own company’s global financial structure, meaning it now has separate, individually defined costs that are calculated in a different column on a different spreadsheet, so it isn’t included in the overall cost of the European tour as it was previously and which is how things like ticket prices are calculated and set in the first place.

The good news is that I’m about to go into a meeting where I can tell people that we’ve got it all wrong, and that there’s a football forum where we can learn how things really work and how we can easily just get on with it like nothing happened, as told to us by people who have NO idea at all how it works. I smell a promotion ?
Great post ^^ @RyanioBirdio
 
Oh, and the absolute state of someone suggesting that maybe the companies could slash their profits to keep costs lower. How very socialist - Comrade Corbyn would be proud of that one ?
 
From the same article.......................

Instead, in just 10 months’ time, anyone from the EU seeking to perform will need to:

* Apply for a visa to enter the UK, at a cost of ÂŁ244 for each group member.

* Provide proof, 90 days before applying, that they have nearly £1,000 in savings and so can support themselves, unless they are ‘A-rated’.

* Provide a certificate of sponsorship from an event organiser - who must take responsibility for them - or a letter of invitation in some circumstances.

Seems pretty clear to me?
I`ve completed enough Visa`s for holidays etc, certificates of sponsorship are common enough in many countries, and I`m sure there are several countries that request evidence of liquidity alongside applications for working visa`s?
What am I missing?
You’ve been working in nhs too long if you’ve developed such a love of unnecessary bureaucracy and unnecessary resource transfers :)
 
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