National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

ZeroTheHero · 19 Mar 2019

It's a sorry state of affairs when she keeps asking MPs to agree the same thing on the basis that some will think 'it's not as bad as a no deal' and other will think 'it's not as bad as not leaving'! Surely that bluff has now been called?

Leysboy · 19 Mar 2019

Pete Burrett said:
That's a very bold statement! Some change is obviously good (scientific advancement, medical innovation etc) but post-Brexit change could, as you yourself say, be beneficial or disastrous.

If the latter, you and your family could become very fearful of change. I don't think soundbites like 'I don't fear change' add anything to the debate. Good for you. Hope it works out for you. If it doesn't, no doubt you'll be back on a similar Brexit thread in the future admitting so?

Absolutely Pete. I will come back here or another thread, and join in discussions if it doesn’t work, but at the same time I would expect Remainers, to come back too like yourself if works and we leave.

Yellow River · 19 Mar 2019

"This is your decision. We will implement what you decide." From the booklet sent to every house in the country.

tonyw · 19 Mar 2019

Leysboy said:
Absolutely Pete. I will come back here or another thread, and join in discussions if it doesn’t work, but at the same time I would expect Remainers, to come back too like yourself if works and we leave.

If Britain leaves the EU without a deal, and then goes on to rapidly sign trade deals with multiple countries and becomes a roaring, low tax, Singapore-style economy then I will be both surprised and relieved. And will happily come on here and say as much.

But I will still have lost the right to live and work in 27 different countries.

So if freedom of movement goes away - and given that it was the #1 reason why most people voted for Brexit, the whole effort would be pointless if it doesn't - then I will still feel that Brexit has taken away a right that I valued; and therefore will still view it as a bad thing.

tonyw · 19 Mar 2019

Yellow River said:
"This is your decision. We will implement what you decide." From the booklet sent to every house in the country.

General Election 2010: Labour's broken manifesto pledges

Labour's 2005 election manifesto made a series of bold promises, but how many were kept? We look at the pledges made and what actually happened.

www.telegraph.co.uk

20 promises the Tories have broken since being elected two years ago

There are broken pledges on balancing the books, running a budget surplus and delivering a strong NHS - and now Theresa May wants another five years in power

www.mirror.co.uk

Liberal Democrat conference: the many broken promises of Nick Clegg

Ahead of Nick Clegg's Q&A at the final Liberal Democrat conference before their inevitable shellacking at the general election, we look back at some of his more tragicomic broken promises from the last five years

www.telegraph.co.uk

To be politically neutral - here's one from each of the three parties from the past decade.

Being lied to by politicians isn't an exception - it's the usual course of business.

Sheik djibouti · 19 Mar 2019

Interesting concept of voting out MPs who didn't vote with the "will of the people" at a GE.

Fine in principle, but won't work in practice.

Take the Witney constituency where, by that logic, Robert Courts will be out on his a**e at a GE. Given West Oxfordshire's voting history, the devil will be skating to work before that happens because...well...after all...he is a Tory.

tonyw · 19 Mar 2019

Sheik djibouti said:
Take the Witney constituency where, by that logic, Robert Courts will be out on his a**e at a GE. Given West Oxfordshire's voting history, the devil will be skating to work before that happens because...well...after all...he is a Tory.

Hey, if the voters of Witney decide that it's more important to vote for a Tory than for someone who respects their wishes about Brexit (presumably the Lib Dems would field a pro-Remain candidate) - then that's absolutely their prerogative. If Remain or Leave areas don't care enough about Brexit to turf out their MPs because of party affiliation, then that's just as indicative of the local mood as any other democratic decision.

650 such local democratic decisions will paint a full picture of the country's views. And the government and parliament can then act accordingly.

ljs · 19 Mar 2019

tonyw said:
Hey, if the voters of Witney decide that it's more important to vote for a Tory than for someone who respects their wishes about Brexit (presumably the Lib Dems would field a pro-Remain candidate) - then that's absolutely their prerogative. If Remain or Leave areas don't care enough about Brexit to turf out their MPs because of party affiliation, then that's just as indicative of the local mood as any other democratic decision.

650 such local democratic decisions will paint a full picture of the country's views. And the government and parliament can then act accordingly.

A general election isn't a vote about one issue... that's a referendum.

Yellow River · 19 Mar 2019

tonyw said:
General Election 2010: Labour's broken manifesto pledges

Labour's 2005 election manifesto made a series of bold promises, but how many were kept? We look at the pledges made and what actually happened.

www.telegraph.co.uk

20 promises the Tories have broken since being elected two years ago

There are broken pledges on balancing the books, running a budget surplus and delivering a strong NHS - and now Theresa May wants another five years in power

www.mirror.co.uk

Liberal Democrat conference: the many broken promises of Nick Clegg

Ahead of Nick Clegg's Q&A at the final Liberal Democrat conference before their inevitable shellacking at the general election, we look back at some of his more tragicomic broken promises from the last five years

www.telegraph.co.uk

To be politically neutral - here's one from each of the three parties from the past decade.

Being lied to by politicians isn't an exception - it's the usual course of business.

I take your point but to my mind this is different.

It was not a political party manifesto made up of many and various promises which we as voters know from past experience some of which will be kept and others abandoned along the way.

This was a once in a lifetime unique referendum with a binary choice leave or remain. Very straight forward. A huge record turnout. Many people voting who don’t normally bother to vote. Many people voting for the first time. The public engaged and interested in politics in a way that has never been seen before in the country.

So now we are left with a shambolic government, a useless opposition, a parliament that doesn’t want to implement what the country has voted for. The country a laughing stock . With trust in MPs and the democratic process at its lowest ebb in living memory.

ZeroTheHero · 19 Mar 2019

You can't use a GE as a de facto referendum. If, in my constituency I had a remainer Tory and a leaver Labour as candidates (which I won't!) then if I were a remainer I would have to 'approve' all the other Tory policies (tax cuts for the rich, austerity, being soft on big business etc) in order to say I wanted to remain. The same the other way round - would I want to endorse the Labour party (who are as much of a shambles as the Tories, albeit a slightly quieter one!) and all they stand for in order to say I wanted to leave?

Marked Ox · 19 Mar 2019

Incredibly according to the C4 news, there are suggestions that May and the Govt is considering trying for another "meaningful vote" on her deal on the last Parliamentary day before leaving. Her arrogance clearly shows no limits especially as she has said that Parliament is looking a joke worldwide, ignoring that she is the cause of the joke.

tonyw · 19 Mar 2019

ZeroTheHero said:
You can't use a GE as a de facto referendum. If, in my constituency I had a remainer Tory and a leaver Labour as candidates (which I won't!) then if I were a remainer I would have to 'approve' all the other Tory policies (tax cuts for the rich, austerity, being soft on big business etc) in order to say I wanted to remain. The same the other way round - would I want to endorse the Labour party (who are as much of a shambles as the Tories, albeit a slightly quieter one!) and all they stand for in order to say I wanted to leave?

Except this is exactly how our government is designed to operate - and has operated, for the most part successfully, throughout its history. Britain has only ever had three referendums. One (AV in 2011) turned out basically to be pointless, and 2016 has been disastrously oversimplistic. I can't really comment on 1975......

As a voter, you have to weigh up which are the most important issues for you, and then vote for the candidate that you think will represent your views on those issues the best.

If you don't like any of the candidates - that sucks. It's a risk. Then you've just got to hold your nose and vote for the least worst option. But again, that's representative democracy.

Yes, there's one issue that looms above all others right now.
But the reason we need a GE is because the government has been a shambles, and the opposition has been a shambles, and therefore it's beyond time that each and every MP stands up in front of their constituents and justifies their actions. A functional parliament, who can actually make a decision on Brexit, would hopefully be the result. If not, we'll still be in a mess, but at least we'll have tried out the one tried and trusted method of resolving bad government that we have available to us under our form of democracy.

tonyw · 19 Mar 2019

Yellow River said:
This was a once in a lifetime unique referendum with a binary choice leave or remain. Very straight forward. A huge record turnout. Many people voting who don’t normally bother to vote. Many people voting for the first time. The public engaged and interested in politics in a way that has never been seen before in the country.

So now we are left with a shambolic government, a useless opposition, a parliament that doesn’t want to implement what the country has voted for. The country a laughing stock . With trust in MPs and the democratic process at its lowest ebb in living memory.

I fear we're retreading old ground here - but surely the mess we're in today has been caused by the fact that a binary, straightforward question was asked to resolve a non-binary, non-straightforward problem.

We voted out, but does that mean No Deal or May's Deal or Corbyn's Deal (which is unclear, but probably is softer than May's and involves staying in the single market somehow...…)? The referendum didn't tell us, our MPs can't decide, and so we reach the current stalemate.

The referendum was a bad idea, only undertaken in the first place as a means to shut up the back bench dissenters in the Tory party (and Nigel's crew), and its execution was even worse. Cameron and co. never considered that they might lose, and it shows in the way the vote was organized and the campaign was run.

I will agree with your final paragraph in its entirety however.

Gary Baldi · 19 Mar 2019

Is it not a teeny bit ironic that so many politicians who voted to trigger Article 50 (a majority of 384), are now having such conniption fits with the consequences of what they voted for? Did they not understand what they voted for?

So the thought persists that why should we, the proles in this matter, trust them to understand it now over and above the vote we had in 2016?

cassox · 19 Mar 2019

Thats the problem.....the remoaners dredge up the old "no-one knew what deal they wanted" the referendum was simple Leave or Remain ......ok ok we all thought if the EU want to do a deal then obviously we will listen BUT May just went to the EU and came back with her dumbarsed ballsup so called deal.....we should have left within 2 weeks and THEN if the EU wanted to negotiate then we would be all ears.......May and the rest of the absolute arsewipes in Parliament have fucked about for 3 years and the reason for that is they think they know better than the general public and never wanted to leave ,they are getting desperate and will stop at absolutely nothing to scupper Brexit....they will pay at the ballot box

Marked Ox · 19 Mar 2019

cassox said:
Thats the problem.....the remoaners dredge up the old "no-one knew what deal they wanted" the referendum was simple Leave or Remain ......ok ok we all thought if the EU want to do a deal then obviously we will listen BUT May just went to the EU and came back with her dumbarsed ballsup so called deal.....we should have left within 2 weeks and THEN if the EU wanted to negotiate then we would be all ears.......May and the rest of the absolute arsewipes in Parliament have fucked about for 3 years and the reason for that is they think they know better than the general public and never wanted to leave ,they are getting desperate and will stop at absolutely nothing to scupper Brexit....they will pay at the ballot box

Have you read up on the real Lisbon Treaty, not the fake news version, yet?

Sarge · 20 Mar 2019

Dunno if already posted up? Working group planning for a no deal brexit (should it happen) are going by the name of yellowhammer .... its not made up of u's n west 'am supporters is it?

ZeroTheHero · 20 Mar 2019

tonyw said:
Except this is exactly how our government is designed to operate - and has operated, for the most part successfully, throughout its history. Britain has only ever had three referendums. One (AV in 2011) turned out basically to be pointless, and 2016 has been disastrously oversimplistic. I can't really comment on 1975......

As a voter, you have to weigh up which are the most important issues for you, and then vote for the candidate that you think will represent your views on those issues the best.

If you don't like any of the candidates - that sucks. It's a risk. Then you've just got to hold your nose and vote for the least worst option. But again, that's representative democracy.

Yes, there's one issue that looms above all others right now.
But the reason we need a GE is because the government has been a shambles, and the opposition has been a shambles, and therefore it's beyond time that each and every MP stands up in front of their constituents and justifies their actions. A functional parliament, who can actually make a decision on Brexit, would hopefully be the result. If not, we'll still be in a mess, but at least we'll have tried out the one tried and trusted method of resolving bad government that we have available to us under our form of democracy.

I don't agree. I DO agree that in normal times, that is how our democracy is set up. But this whole debacle is the over-riding issue at the moment, and whether or not any GE is set up as a second referendum - that is exactly how it will be treated. And if none of the candidates in my constituency offer me the chance to vote - on this one issue - the way I want then I am entirely disenfranchised. That's quite often the case for many people in every general election of course (for example Tory voters in solid Labour seats and vice versa, most people who support a minority party) and a potent argument for PR - which would also IMO lead to a more consensual, grown up and modern parliament.

Essexyellows · 20 Mar 2019

cassox said:
Thats the problem.....the remoaners dredge up the old "no-one knew what deal they wanted" the referendum was simple Leave or Remain ......ok ok we all thought if the EU want to do a deal then obviously we will listen BUT May just went to the EU and came back with her dumbarsed ballsup so called deal.....we should have left within 2 weeks and THEN if the EU wanted to negotiate then we would be all ears.......May and the rest of the absolute arsewipes in Parliament have fucked about for 3 years and the reason for that is they think they know better than the general public and never wanted to leave ,they are getting desperate and will stop at absolutely nothing to scupper Brexit....they will pay at the ballot box

I wish to applaud this particular post, not for its style or grammar, but the sense behind it.

However, I can not agree with "pay at the ballot box".
I live in a constituency that could field a donkey wearing a Labour rosette and it would win.
By region Leave won ( 1.475m to 1.03m )
By constituency Remain won by 3k or thereabouts.
Source: https://www.electoralcommission.org...u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information

Whilst the 17.4 million people could vote to follow their referendum choice, the impact would barely be felt and we would end up with another weak parliament if a GE was called.
The Tory "bogeyman" of UKIP is a busted flush, a large number of Labour voters support leaving and a new generation of voters might actually get off their arses and vote....... won`t guarantee things are any better though!

Happy days, tick tock.....

SiHath · 20 Mar 2019

Sarge said:
Dunno if already posted up? Working group planning for a no deal brexit (should it happen) are going by the name of yellowhammer .... its not made up of u's n west 'am supporters is it?

West Ham and Oxford...

Does that mean Joey Beauchamp will be leading it?

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