International News Americans with guns ....

OUFCGav said:
Got to love the American right-wing. In amongst polling around gun control is the stat that 44% of Republicans said mass shootings should be accepted as part of a free society.
Just mind bogglingly stupid.
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Think about how thick the average Republican is, then remember that 50% of them are even thicker than that...
 
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OUFCGav said:
Got to love the American right-wing. In amongst polling around gun control is the stat that 44% of Republicans said mass shootings should be accepted as part of a free society.
Just mind bogglingly stupid.
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The thing is, if they were to come out and say "Yeah, it's a shame that people die and that, but we really love our guns, and we think some collateral damage is acceptable.", I'd actually have more respect for them than the constant "more guns are what's needed to make it safer!" drivel.
 
m said:
The thing is, if they were to come out and say "Yeah, it's a shame that people die and that, but we really love our guns, and we think some collateral damage is acceptable.", I'd actually have more respect for them than the constant "more guns are what's needed to make it safer!" drivel.
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I would have more respect for them if they were even vaguely consistent.

If someone said to me 'Look, I believe 100% in personal freedom; the government should not place any unnecessary restrictions on its citizens; we should be free to own anything we want or do anything we want as long as it doesn't directly harm another person. And if an occasional nutter gunning down schoolchildren is the price we have to pay for that freedom - so be it'.......

......well, I wouldn't agree with them, but I'd at least accept that they had an ethos, even if it was a rather extreme libertarian one.

But you just know that a large proportion of that 44% will be wholly anti-abortion, anti-gay and anti-immigration.
They want to be free to make the choices they want to make, whatever the cost to society as a whole, but noone should be free to make any choices that they don't approve........
 
tonyw said:
I would have more respect for them if they were even vaguely consistent.

If someone said to me 'Look, I believe 100% in personal freedom; the government should not place any unnecessary restrictions on its citizens; we should be free to own anything we want or do anything we want as long as it doesn't directly harm another person. And if an occasional nutter gunning down schoolchildren is the price we have to pay for that freedom - so be it'.......

......well, I wouldn't agree with them, but I'd at least accept that they had an ethos, even if it was a rather extreme libertarian one.

But you just know that a large proportion of that 44% will be wholly anti-abortion, anti-gay and anti-immigration.
They want to be free to make the choices they want to make, whatever the cost to society as a whole, but noone should be free to make any choices that they don't approve........
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They’ll also be obsessively opposed to government spending, but demand a bigger military and better pay for service people
 
werthersoriginal said:
They’ll also be obsessively opposed to government spending, but demand a bigger military and better pay for service people
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You're in danger of getting me started on another long rant.......

I'll just restrict myself to pointing out that under Trump, the US budget deficit increased every year during his presidency to the point where his final year in power in 2020 (admittedly partly fueled by Covid) the deficit was more than twice that of any other year in US history to that point (>$3T).

In the second year of Biden's presidency, the deficit is forecast to be less than a third of Trump's 2020 figure
(although this is more due to record tax revenues than any reduction in US federal government spending)

Not saying that I love Biden. He's way too old and way past his best. But Trumpism is a cult that is wholly without principles, and it could easily destroy the country if it comes back again in 2024.
 
tonyw said:
You're in danger of getting me started on another long rant.......

I'll just restrict myself to pointing out that under Trump, the US budget deficit increased every year during his presidency to the point where his final year in power in 2020 (admittedly partly fueled by Covid) the deficit was more than twice that of any other year in US history to that point (>$3T).

In the second year of Biden's presidency, the deficit is forecast to be less than a third of Trump's 2020 figure
(although this is more due to record tax revenues than any reduction in US federal government spending)

Not saying that I love Biden. He's way too old and way past his best. But Trumpism is a cult that is wholly without principles, and it could easily destroy the country if it comes back again in 2024.
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It could realistically end the US as a democracy. That's scary!
 
tonyw said:
You're in danger of getting me started on another long rant.......

I'll just restrict myself to pointing out that under Trump, the US budget deficit increased every year during his presidency to the point where his final year in power in 2020 (admittedly partly fueled by Covid) the deficit was more than twice that of any other year in US history to that point (>$3T).

In the second year of Biden's presidency, the deficit is forecast to be less than a third of Trump's 2020 figure
(although this is more due to record tax revenues than any reduction in US federal government spending)

Not saying that I love Biden. He's way too old and way past his best. But Trumpism is a cult that is wholly without principles, and it could easily destroy the country if it comes back again in 2024.
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You say "partly fueled by Covid" but then go on to compare Biden's current deficit with Trump's Covid deficit?

How does his deficit compare to Trump's first year, out of interest?
 
bashamwonderland said:
You say "partly fueled by Covid" but then go on to compare Biden's current deficit with Trump's Covid deficit?

How does his deficit compare to Trump's first year, out of interest?
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Here's the figures.
datalab.usaspending.gov

Fiscal Data Explains the National Deficit

Check out @FiscalService Fiscal Data’s new national deficit page! #NationalDeficit
datalab.usaspending.gov datalab.usaspending.gov

Estimates put the 2022 deficit in the $900b - $1T range - so it's similar to the deficit in 2019......Trump's third year in office, and final year before Covid.

My argument is not that Biden is a fiscal conservative - of course he isn't, he's a big government socialist. He wants the US government to spend big, and if necessary borrow big, to pay for big infrastructure and welfare projects.

My argument is that Trump is not a fiscal conservative either - he just wants the US government to spend big(ly) and borrow big(ly) to pay for walls and aircraft carriers and massive vanity projects. If you're going to lose a trillion dollars a year, you could at least try and do something to help the average American.

I actually have some time for proper fiscal conservatives like Rand Paul and Ben Sasse. They have a consistent, logical (if slightly mean) ethos.

But populists like Trump who just adopt the occasional social conservative principle just to win some votes make my skin crawl. On a moral and intellectual level.
 
tonyw said:
Here's the figures.
datalab.usaspending.gov

Fiscal Data Explains the National Deficit

Check out @FiscalService Fiscal Data’s new national deficit page! #NationalDeficit
datalab.usaspending.gov datalab.usaspending.gov

Estimates put the 2022 deficit in the $900b - $1T range - so it's similar to the deficit in 2019......Trump's third year in office, and final year before Covid.

My argument is not that Biden is a fiscal conservative - of course he isn't, he's a big government socialist. He wants the US government to spend big, and if necessary borrow big, to pay for big infrastructure and welfare projects.

My argument is that Trump is not a fiscal conservative either - he just wants the US government to spend big(ly) and borrow big(ly) to pay for walls and aircraft carriers and massive vanity projects. If you're going to lose a trillion dollars a year, you could at least try and do something to help the average American.

I actually have some time for proper fiscal conservatives like Rand Paul and Ben Sasse. They have a consistent, logical (if slightly mean) ethos.

But populists like Trump who just adopt the occasional social conservative principle just to win some votes make my skin crawl. On a moral and intellectual level.
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Much to agree with there Tony, but I don't think you can describe Biden as a socialist!
Perhaps you've spent so long there that the popular US consensus that any modicum of centrism is akin to Che Guevara has rubbed off on you!
 
SirAndyOfCrosby said:
Much to agree with there Tony, but I don't think you can describe Biden as a socialist!
Perhaps you've spent so long there that the popular US consensus that any modicum of centrism is akin to Che Guevara has rubbed off on you!
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Fair point - he's a socialist in American terms! In that he does actually believe in some level of welfare provision.

In Britain, he and Obama would definitely be viewed as being to the right of centre.
 
tonyw said:
I would have more respect for them if they were even vaguely consistent.

If someone said to me 'Look, I believe 100% in personal freedom; the government should not place any unnecessary restrictions on its citizens; we should be free to own anything we want or do anything we want as long as it doesn't directly harm another person. And if an occasional nutter gunning down schoolchildren is the price we have to pay for that freedom - so be it'.......

......well, I wouldn't agree with them, but I'd at least accept that they had an ethos, even if it was a rather extreme libertarian one.

But you just know that a large proportion of that 44% will be wholly anti-abortion, anti-gay and anti-immigration.
They want to be free to make the choices they want to make, whatever the cost to society as a whole, but noone should be free to make any choices that they don't approve........
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This is a very good point. The hypocrisy is mind bending
 
Sky News reported tonight that in the last two weeks since the Texas school mass shooting, there have been 793 people killed by guns in the US.

793 people killed in 2 weeks.
 
Matthew mcconaughey putting the case very well in a very empassioned, and moving, speech yesterday
 
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tonyw said:
I would have more respect for them if they were even vaguely consistent.

If someone said to me 'Look, I believe 100% in personal freedom; the government should not place any unnecessary restrictions on its citizens; we should be free to own anything we want or do anything we want as long as it doesn't directly harm another person. And if an occasional nutter gunning down schoolchildren is the price we have to pay for that freedom - so be it'.......

......well, I wouldn't agree with them, but I'd at least accept that they had an ethos, even if it was a rather extreme libertarian one.

But you just know that a large proportion of that 44% will be wholly anti-abortion, anti-gay and anti-immigration.
They want to be free to make the choices they want to make, whatever the cost to society as a whole, but noone should be free to make any choices that they don't approve........
Click to expand...
The thing I don’t like is the invocation of religion as an inviolable reason to contravert constitutionally inviolable freedoms. That is how they manage the inconsistency you describe. Right to bear arms is a secular constitutional right, but right to female self-determination offends jebus so that trumps the constitution.
 
So apparently going armed to kill a US Supreme Court Justice will get Mitch McConnell up in Senate demanding a bill is passed for their protection. Kids being repeated killed doesn't and is deemed an acceptable price.
 
chuckbert said:
The thing I don’t like is the invocation of religion as an inviolable reason to contravert constitutionally inviolable freedoms. That is how they manage the inconsistency you describe. Right to bear arms is a secular constitutional right, but right to female self-determination offends jebus so that trumps the constitution.
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And I just heard a recording of a senator saying that banning guns was taking away their "god-given 2nd amendment rights". FFS.
 
chuckbert said:
And I just heard a recording of a senator saying that banning guns was taking away their "god-given 2nd amendment rights". FFS.
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Amazing how many Americans there are that don't understand the word 'Amendment'.
 
chuckbert said:
The thing I don’t like is the invocation of religion as an inviolable reason to contravert constitutionally inviolable freedoms. That is how they manage the inconsistency you describe. Right to bear arms is a secular constitutional right, but right to female self-determination offends jebus so that trumps the constitution.
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I'm no expert on the bible, but I think there's something in there about thou shalt not kill. But according to Republicans, that doesn't trump the constitution. 🤷‍♂️
 
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