National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

[Manorlounger]

f**k yeah.

Elect this man immediately.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

At the end of the day people voted for brexit right or wrong.
If we’ve done the wrong thing then we should live with it.

No, if you’ve done the wrong thing and the effects haven’t been felt yet then you simply don’t do it. You’re basically saying that if you’ve already made the decision to jump out of the plane without a parachute, that’s it, there’s nothing you can do. Personally I would just not jump. That’s the issue with our country unfortunately. We are the kings and queens of biting off our own nose to spite our face. Admitting you might have got something wrong, or rather haven’t got something entirely right, is not a weakness, it is a strength. But we don’t see it that way. I might disagree with someone who is absolutely certain they are right, but I will at least go, “Do you know what? They genuinely believe they’re right here. I can’t take that away from them - this is sincere and resolute on their part.” What I can and won’t accept is someone arguing on the premise of, “Listen, maybe this wasn’t right, but I’ve nailed my colours to the mast and I’m not backing down, even if I think I might have messed up.” In fact the more people suggest they might have got it wrong, the more credence it lends to a second vote.

As an aside, I saw this earlier: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49605461

I’ve lost count of how often I’ve been told that ‘business is ready for no deal’ over the last god knows how long. We aren’t. We FACTUALLY are not ready for no deal, nor can we ever be, because we do not know what it means. I own part of the company I work for and I’m telling everybody, as a business owner, WE ARE NOT READY FOR NO DEAL. The entire sector I work in, which is worth billions, is NOT ready for no deal. Nobody is ready for no deal. Nobody knows what no deal is. THIS is the problem. Anybody who dares to question this situation is written off as some sort of wimp or scaremongering ninny - I’m simply trying to keep myself and my colleagues, who are now my employees, in a job. Over 90% of the materials my business uses to function are not from the UK, and we do not know what sort of delays no deal would cause with their availability nor how much it would affect the price. It would DEFINITELY increase the prices, we just don’t know if it’s by one or two percent or by twenty or thirty. If it were the latter we’d lay people off immediately, and we can’t use UK materials instead of importing it because not only do we not make enough ourselves, the price of what we do produce is through the roof, so we’d have to let people go anyway. We don’t import it for a laugh, we import it because we have to, both economically and logistically. And there aren’t more UK companies offering those services because frankly, we aren’t arsed about making these things ourselves. It’s an import based industry and we’ve set ourselves up for that.

This is what too many people don’t seem to understand. We have spent 40 odd years adjusting our entire economic system and way of life to what we make and import. Our industry and infrastructure as a nation is based on what we make and sell at home and what we buy and bring in from abroad. We can’t just up and start making things ourselves out of nowhere after years or even decades of importing virtually all of certain things. We don’t have the skills or the resources to just sprout entire industries overnight, and by the time we finally muddle through god knows how many years of toil and trouble, and start making some sort of headway, most of us will either be dead or too bloody old to see it. What’s the point of spending the rest of our lives and beyond just catching up to where we already are now? It isn’t for our benefit and we can’t even say it’s for our kids either - they didn’t ask for this and they don’t have a bloody clue what’s going on, yet they’re going to have to sort a lot of it out when it didn’t even need sorting to begin with. It’s a nonsense.

Yeah, I get it, I’m just another advocate of Project Fear. But there’s nothing I can do if I sit here and am ignored or told I’m a liar when I go, “Factually, as a business owner and employer, I’m TELLING you how it is. I’m TELLING you how this works because I spend my life doing it, day in and day out. I am not wrong because this is my job, and I spend more time doing my job than I do with my own family. This is the thing in life I am most knowledgeable of and skilled in, and I am CATEGORICALLY TELLING YOU I AM NOT WRONG.” There’s nothing I can do if that isn’t enough for somebody, and I’m absolutely fine with that, because it takes a special kind of person to tell somebody who is trained in a certain field that they’re wrong without having any knowledge of it themselves. That’s just stupid, deluded and downright insane. It’s full blown insanity, and that’s pretty much what Brexit is being exposed as more and more each day. Just a bunch of lies, inaccuracies and people with no knowledge of an awful lot of things shouting about how and why they’re wrong. Even the lords, which is full of peers from the world of business and trade, are hammering through getting the no deal bill passed back to the commons in time because they can see how important it is. Ah, but then I forgot we’ve had enough of experts...

Genuinely, this is all just mad. But I’ve heard few things more insane than, “Look, even if we’re wrong, there’s just nothing we can do, we have to drink the bleach and see what happens.” If that’s the mindset that’s beginning to creep in as the emperor is revealed more and more to be in the buff, why would anybody in their right mind want to see it through?

 

[m]

No, if you’ve done the wrong thing and the effects haven’t been felt yet then you simply don’t do it. You’re basically saying that if you’ve already made the decision to jump out of the plane without a parachute, that’s it, there’s nothing you can do. Personally I would just not jump. That’s the issue with our country unfortunately. We are the kings and queens of biting off our own nose to spite our face. Admitting you might have got something wrong, or rather haven’t got something entirely right, is not a weakness, it is a strength. But we don’t see it that way. I might disagree with someone who is absolutely certain they are right, but I will at least go, “Do you know what? They genuinely believe they’re right here. I can’t take that away from them - this is sincere and resolute on their part.” What I can and won’t accept is someone arguing on the premise of, “Listen, maybe this wasn’t right, but I’ve nailed my colours to the mast and I’m not backing down, even if I think I might have messed up.” In fact the more people suggest they might have got it wrong, the more credence it lends to a second vote.

As an aside, I saw this earlier: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49605461

I’ve lost count of how often I’ve been told that ‘business is ready for no deal’ over the last god knows how long. We aren’t. We FACTUALLY are not ready for no deal, nor can we ever be, because we do not know what it means. I own part of the company I work for and I’m telling everybody, as a business owner, WE ARE NOT READY FOR NO DEAL. The entire sector I work in, which is worth billions, is NOT ready for no deal. Nobody is ready for no deal. Nobody knows what no deal is. THIS is the problem. Anybody who dares to question this situation is written off as some sort of wimp or scaremongering ninny - I’m simply trying to keep myself and my colleagues, who are now my employees, in a job. Over 90% of the materials my business uses to function are not from the UK, and we do not know what sort of delays no deal would cause with their availability nor how much it would affect the price. It would DEFINITELY increase the prices, we just don’t know if it’s by one or two percent or by twenty or thirty. If it were the latter we’d lay people off immediately, and we can’t use UK materials instead of importing it because not only do we not make enough ourselves, the price of what we do produce is through the roof, so we’d have to let people go anyway. We don’t import it for a laugh, we import it because we have to, both economically and logistically. And there aren’t more UK companies offering those services because frankly, we aren’t arsed about making these things ourselves. It’s an import based industry and we’ve set ourselves up for that.

This is what too many people don’t seem to understand. We have spent 40 odd years adjusting our entire economic system and way of life to what we make and import. Our industry and infrastructure as a nation is based on what we make and sell at home and what we buy and bring in from abroad. We can’t just up and start making things ourselves out of nowhere after years or even decades of importing virtually all of certain things. We don’t have the skills or the resources to just sprout entire industries overnight, and by the time we finally muddle through god knows how many years of toil and trouble, and start making some sort of headway, most of us will either be dead or too bloody old to see it. What’s the point of spending the rest of our lives and beyond just catching up to where we already are now? It isn’t for our benefit and we can’t even say it’s for our kids either - they didn’t ask for this and they don’t have a bloody clue what’s going on, yet they’re going to have to sort a lot of it out when it didn’t even need sorting to begin with. It’s a nonsense.

Yeah, I get it, I’m just another advocate of Project Fear. But there’s nothing I can do if I sit here and am ignored or told I’m a liar when I go, “Factually, as a business owner and employer, I’m TELLING you how it is. I’m TELLING you how this works because I spend my life doing it, day in and day out. I am not wrong because this is my job, and I spend more time doing my job than I do with my own family. This is the thing in life I am most knowledgeable of and skilled in, and I am CATEGORICALLY TELLING YOU I AM NOT WRONG.” There’s nothing I can do if that isn’t enough for somebody, and I’m absolutely fine with that, because it takes a special kind of person to tell somebody who is trained in a certain field that they’re wrong without having any knowledge of it themselves. That’s just stupid, deluded and downright insane. It’s full blown insanity, and that’s pretty much what Brexit is being exposed as more and more each day. Just a bunch of lies, inaccuracies and people with no knowledge of an awful lot of things shouting about how and why they’re wrong. Even the lords, which is full of peers from the world of business and trade, are hammering through getting the no deal bill passed back to the commons in time because they can see how important it is. Ah, but then I forgot we’ve had enough of experts...

Genuinely, this is all just mad. But I’ve heard few things more insane than, “Look, even if we’re wrong, there’s just nothing we can do, we have to drink the bleach and see what happens.” If that’s the mindset that’s beginning to creep in as the emperor is revealed more and more to be in the buff, why would anybody in their right mind want to see it through?

Yeah, but at least we won't have to have actual meat in our sausages anymore.

And we can change Snickers back to Marathon.

 

[Sarge]

 

[PottersRightBoot]

Well respected pollsters are saying that if the Conservatives enter into in a pact with the Brexit Party they will win 490 seats at the next election. The day of reckoning is coming. Labour are going to get wiped out and the Lib Democrats will become the opposition. By delaying the election date Labour Party are merely rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

With all his flaws, Johnson is the only politician trying to accomodate the will of the majority. He will be rewarded eventually at the polls .

COYY.

 

[Peterdev]

I understand how business owners feel. I own a small business myself.
The voters MAY have made a mistake but it is what they asked for. It may be wrong or it may be right, but the verdict was to leave.
There are many experts saying we shouldn’t leave, or we should leave with a deal. There are others who are saying we should leave.
Personally, I think the scene is set that we won’t be able to leave because parliament is against what the people voted for.
All the leaders have made a mess of it.
Heath should have had a referendum and chose not to, despite assurances to the contrary. Personally I feel had he done so, and the people voted to join...which I think they would have done...we wouldn’t have the situation we have now.
Cameron wanted to heal the divisions of his own party and chose a referendum which he lost and then walked away from.
Theresa May could have been able to get a deal over the line. She had a majority in Parliament, chose an election to try and increase her majority and her chances of getting it across the line, and ended up with a minority government.
With May perceived as a weak leader, we now have Johnson. Since achieving high office, we now have a man who has foolishly got rid of 21 of his own party, and lost two further Conservative MPs, upset the police by talking about brexit when police numbers were supposed to be the subject of his speech.
He’s lost four votes in the commons and a by election having only been in office a few months.
Corbyn and Co refuse an election. The Liberals have made political capital by seeking the pro EU vote.
Even if there is an election there is the high probability of a hung parliament. The Tories will be held back by the brexit party, Labour will struggle and the Liberals will make headway.
The pro EU lobby will ultimately win and the country will become even more of a laughing stock than it is already.
The United Kingdom won’t be able to leave the EU.
What is more, we will probably be faced with another referendum in Scotland resulting in independence.
Then perhaps this country can at least get back to tackling the issues that have been left behind for the last five years

 

[Peterdev]

Well respected pollsters are saying that if the Conservatives enter into in a pact with the Brexit Party they will win 490 seats at the next election. The day of reckoning is coming. Labour are going to get wiped out and the Lib Democrats will become the opposition. By delaying the election date Labour Party are merely rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

With all his flaws, Johnson is the only politician trying to accomodate the will of the majority. He will be rewarded eventually at the polls .

COYY.

I’d like to think you are right. But I think the Conservatives are now so divided as a party. Parties that are as badly divided as this never seem to do well at the polls. Evidence of this Labour in 1983 and 1987. Conservatives in 1997
COYY let’s beat Fleetwood at last

 

[Peterdev]

Just caught up on this thread. Is Boris really being portrayed as some sort of coming victor?

He’s flip flopped his ‘principles’ to become an ardent ‘out by 31st October’ crusader. It’s very likely he’s lost that battle. If he had any principles at all - and he hasn’t - he would resign as a failure, but he won’t.

I don’t think even Boris will attempt to break the law and take us out of Europe without a deal, so an election it is.

Boris is good at selling his soul, so he may well ally the Tories with Farage. Lots of Leavers will switch to the Brexit Party in disgust at Boris’ failure, or ‘treachery’ to use the Common Brexit phraseology, so a right wing government will prevail.

How they finally achieve a legal, deal bound Brexit remains to be seen, but to cast Boris as a winner in this debacle would be fanciful in the extreme.

I think we agree on Boris J. He promises so much and I really believe now that he can’t and won’t deliver.
He’s already promising thousands more police officers..that won’t happen.
£30000 starting pay for teachers.
Sounds good in theory...we’d all think thats a good idea.
As for 31/10 I think that too now is undeliverable.
As for an election I can see the lowest turnout for years and a realignment if political parties the like of which has not been seen before

 

[Sarge]

 

[Peterdev]

The ability to speak broken B*****s might be a distinct advantage

 

[Ian]

How do you think a compromise can be reached?

The UK remains a full member of the EU, but Brexiters are allowed to apply for visas to travel overseas & give up rights to medical treatment within the EU, & consular help from non UK embassies and consulates. Oh, and they will be allowed to pay roaming charges on their phones, give up holiday, break and working hours protections.

 

[m]

The UK remains a full member of the EU, but Brexiters are allowed to apply for visas to travel overseas & give up rights to medical treatment within the EU, & consular help from non UK embassies and consulates. Oh, and they will be allowed to pay roaming charges on their phones, give up holiday, break and working hours protections.

Oh come on, you have to give!

An absolute guarantee they will never be conscripted to the EU army.

Unlike the rest of us, of course.

 

[Ian]

I did think May's deal would ultimately be the best it was going to get, so I'd rather have voted on it and talked trade, but other didn't think so. I would much rather a deal is agreed upon with the EU because both sides will lose without one, but I'm realistic enough that sometimes you have to walk away and accept the worst case scenario because you have other priorities that you need get on with. 3 years is long enough.

Brexit has sucked an abnormal amount of legislative time up and I am at a point where I care more about funding the Police, funding schools, investing in infrastructure, particularly in the north, than listening to a bunch of Remainers constantly moan about leaving the EU for another couple of years while parliament spins it's wheels because no can agree on anything.

So if it has to be a No Deal Brexit, so be it. It's an opportunity lost, but an opportunity gained. I am fed up of the persistent negativity about Brexit and shrill doom mongering that has dragged this country down since the vote, and I am not the only one who wants to move on now to look to the future rather than obsess about a vote held 3 years ago and how awfully thick those racists are who voted for it.

We cannot Remain and even vaguely call ourselves a Democracy. If that happened, I will only sit back and say I told you so when politics becomes even nastier than it is now and Remainers don't like how badly they are treated.

Constitutional change usually requires at 65% share of the vote.

The referendum, legally, was only advisory.

We have a parliamentary democracy.

The "doom mongering" is people speaking the truth. Doctors, scientists, international business people. The voices of people who know so little are being drowned out - which us how it should be.

You cannot run companies on lies and fantasies... We must not allow our government to be run on lies and fantasies.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Oh come on, you have to give!

An absolute guarantee they will never be conscripted to the EU army.

Unlike the rest of us, of course.

We could buy 17.4 million blue passport covers too.

I'm sure we could get a good bulk buy deal and it would certainly be affordable given the extra money the Saj is spunking on EU exit.

 

[PottersRightBoot]

Just caught up on this thread. Is Boris really being portrayed as some sort of coming victor?

He’s flip flopped his ‘principles’ to become an ardent ‘out by 31st October’ crusader. It’s very likely he’s lost that battle. If he had any principles at all - and he hasn’t - he would resign as a failure, but he won’t.

I don’t think even Boris will attempt to break the law and take us out of Europe without a deal, so an election it is.

Boris is good at selling his soul, so he may well ally the Tories with Farage. Lots of Leavers will switch to the Brexit Party in disgust at Boris’ failure, or ‘treachery’ to use the Common Brexit phraseology, so a right wing government will prevail.

How they finally achieve a legal, deal bound Brexit remains to be seen, but to cast Boris as a winner in this debacle would be fanciful in the extreme.

The polls say so. If he cuts a deal with Brexit Party. Which he will.

Polls are changeable of course cf 2017 but Johnson is a far better campaigner than moribund May.

Labour are dead. They wouldn’t be if they ditched Corbyn. But they won’t.

Lib Dem’s will do well, despite their poor leader , who isn’t a patch on Cable.

Greens could do a lot better but their problem is not their policies but their loathsome leader. Be more business friendly!

 

[Navegante]

No, if you’ve done the wrong thing and the effects haven’t been felt yet then you simply don’t do it. You’re basically saying that if you’ve already made the decision to jump out of the plane without a parachute, that’s it, there’s nothing you can do. Personally I would just not jump. That’s the issue with our country unfortunately. We are the kings and queens of biting off our own nose to spite our face. Admitting you might have got something wrong, or rather haven’t got something entirely right, is not a weakness, it is a strength. But we don’t see it that way. I might disagree with someone who is absolutely certain they are right, but I will at least go, “Do you know what? They genuinely believe they’re right here. I can’t take that away from them - this is sincere and resolute on their part.” What I can and won’t accept is someone arguing on the premise of, “Listen, maybe this wasn’t right, but I’ve nailed my colours to the mast and I’m not backing down, even if I think I might have messed up.” In fact the more people suggest they might have got it wrong, the more credence it lends to a second vote.

As an aside, I saw this earlier: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49605461

I’ve lost count of how often I’ve been told that ‘business is ready for no deal’ over the last god knows how long. We aren’t. We FACTUALLY are not ready for no deal, nor can we ever be, because we do not know what it means. I own part of the company I work for and I’m telling everybody, as a business owner, WE ARE NOT READY FOR NO DEAL. The entire sector I work in, which is worth billions, is NOT ready for no deal. Nobody is ready for no deal. Nobody knows what no deal is. THIS is the problem. Anybody who dares to question this situation is written off as some sort of wimp or scaremongering ninny - I’m simply trying to keep myself and my colleagues, who are now my employees, in a job. Over 90% of the materials my business uses to function are not from the UK, and we do not know what sort of delays no deal would cause with their availability nor how much it would affect the price. It would DEFINITELY increase the prices, we just don’t know if it’s by one or two percent or by twenty or thirty. If it were the latter we’d lay people off immediately, and we can’t use UK materials instead of importing it because not only do we not make enough ourselves, the price of what we do produce is through the roof, so we’d have to let people go anyway. We don’t import it for a laugh, we import it because we have to, both economically and logistically. And there aren’t more UK companies offering those services because frankly, we aren’t arsed about making these things ourselves. It’s an import based industry and we’ve set ourselves up for that.

This is what too many people don’t seem to understand. We have spent 40 odd years adjusting our entire economic system and way of life to what we make and import. Our industry and infrastructure as a nation is based on what we make and sell at home and what we buy and bring in from abroad. We can’t just up and start making things ourselves out of nowhere after years or even decades of importing virtually all of certain things. We don’t have the skills or the resources to just sprout entire industries overnight, and by the time we finally muddle through god knows how many years of toil and trouble, and start making some sort of headway, most of us will either be dead or too bloody old to see it. What’s the point of spending the rest of our lives and beyond just catching up to where we already are now? It isn’t for our benefit and we can’t even say it’s for our kids either - they didn’t ask for this and they don’t have a bloody clue what’s going on, yet they’re going to have to sort a lot of it out when it didn’t even need sorting to begin with. It’s a nonsense.

Yeah, I get it, I’m just another advocate of Project Fear. But there’s nothing I can do if I sit here and am ignored or told I’m a liar when I go, “Factually, as a business owner and employer, I’m TELLING you how it is. I’m TELLING you how this works because I spend my life doing it, day in and day out. I am not wrong because this is my job, and I spend more time doing my job than I do with my own family. This is the thing in life I am most knowledgeable of and skilled in, and I am CATEGORICALLY TELLING YOU I AM NOT WRONG.” There’s nothing I can do if that isn’t enough for somebody, and I’m absolutely fine with that, because it takes a special kind of person to tell somebody who is trained in a certain field that they’re wrong without having any knowledge of it themselves. That’s just stupid, deluded and downright insane. It’s full blown insanity, and that’s pretty much what Brexit is being exposed as more and more each day. Just a bunch of lies, inaccuracies and people with no knowledge of an awful lot of things shouting about how and why they’re wrong. Even the lords, which is full of peers from the world of business and trade, are hammering through getting the no deal bill passed back to the commons in time because they can see how important it is. Ah, but then I forgot we’ve had enough of experts...

Genuinely, this is all just mad. But I’ve heard few things more insane than, “Look, even if we’re wrong, there’s just nothing we can do, we have to drink the bleach and see what happens.” If that’s the mindset that’s beginning to creep in as the emperor is revealed more and more to be in the buff, why would anybody in their right mind want to see it through?

On the flip side, once those pesky EU directives concerning employment regulations get put on a giant bonfire you will be free to exploit the s**t out of your employees. Every cloud etc

 

[carefreeoufc]

Was chatting to a good friend of mine who is a Major in the RLC. They’ve been working flat out the last few months in preparation for a no deal including preparing for drops of food and medicines if there is a delay.

He’s not one that particularly gives a flying... about what state the country is in but even he said he was surprised at the scenarios they’d been given to prepare for. This isn’t a new recruit either and is coming up to 30 years service.

Absolutely no reason to not believe him and he’s definitely not one for ‘Project Fear’. I’d like the full Operation Yellowhammer published prior to any vote or referendum. If people want to keep their heads in the sand then so be it.

 

[Ian]

Why would house prices collapse? They’ve already done so in the light of three years uncertainty.
We’ve had ten years of near zero interest rates and with uncertainty due to end soon....at least most of us hope so, I’d imagine if anything we should be cautiously optimistic. I think the EU will come up with some compromise as we get nearer to October.
It’s in the interests of all concerned to do trade deals.
Trade barriers are of no help to anyone.
The only concern I have at the moment is the stand off between China and US and the very sad things going on in HK.

House prices are unlikely to "collapse". This nonsense comes from the cr@* Osborne was spouting in 2016.

No-deal Brexit will mean that the value of the pound will be less. Perhaps Osborne misunderstood what thus means for the UK housing market... For Joe Public, housing costs will be little different, however, for foreign "investors", UK property will be much more attractive and affordable... So, we're likely to see oligarchs and others with vast amounts of excessive wealth, plunder the UK housing market. This will keep prices pretty much as they are, and possibly restrict supply even further, with housing kept empty.

More and more Brits will be the slaves of foreign landlords. Working hard to pay rents that will be taken from this country...

 

[RyanioBirdio]

For Joe Public, housing costs will be little different, however, for foreign "investors", UK property will be much more attractive and affordable... So, we're likely to see oligarchs and others with vast amounts of excessive wealth, plunder the UK housing market. This will keep prices pretty much as they are, and possibly restrict supply even further, with housing kept empty.

More and more Brits will be the slaves of foreign landlords. Working hard to pay rents that will be taken from this country...

Well this is the thing isn’t it. Even if prices don’t go down (they will) British people will face a battle to get hold of them due to overseas investors scooping them all up. It just means less Brits will own their homes than already do, and a lot of the profits from those rentals will go overseas. Under no circumstances will British people or the British economy be better off in terms of housing and real estate.

Still. Let’s just believe hard enough and stop being so negative. We’ve had enough of experts and project fear.

 

[Navegante]

'Bedwetters' is the latest term I've heard used to describe Remainers. At least the intellectual side of the debate is evenly-matched.

I'd rather be a "Bedwetter" than a Leaver "Bedshitter".