National News What to do next....Two trillion pound debt

The country is in debt to the tune of two million million pounds. I can’t see how that is ever going to be paid back. The economy is in the worst situation ever, unemployment soaring. The retail sector looks screwed. I’d be interested to know how the government are going to sort out the finances with the continuing demands on it.
The budget is due. Presumably stamp duty will be reinstated at previous levels causing a housing crash. Not very much scope for tax increases.
These are not normal times
I’m afraid that it’s only going to get worse after January. I’m not even trying to provoke or ‘go there’, the simple reality is that there has never been a worse time to be doing what we’re doing, no matter what anybody thinks of it in principle. The Pandemic was a freak fire that broke out, but we’re about to dump a load of petrol on it. I genuinely fear for the extent of this, especially because while Sunak might be a money man (he’s been raised by the banks after all), the people around him are among the most incapable we’ve seen in decades. They mostly rode in on a single issue and were given positions based on how hard they’re willing to double down, and now find themselves particularly out of their depth in a situation that would be virtually impossible for even the most capable and qualified to navigate. Again, not even attempting to be provocative. Nobody would win this one - defeat is inevitable. But I think we’re one of the worst placed to even try to keep the score down.

Some form of Universal Basic Income might become an absolute necessity now. Unemployment is likely going to reach unfathomable levels in the months ahead, and the bigger that number the less the amount of expendable income. Unemployment means the economy can’t be fed through consumer spending, so it might take radical action on a scale we simply haven’t seen before. The problem with consumer capitalism as a whole, globally, is that it is dependant on constant and never ending growth to avoid collapse. It is unsustainable as a model if the conveyor belt stops for even a moment, and crumbles quickly and violently. I categorically do not say that as a sandal wearing tree hugger - I am a consumer capitalist as much as we all are, because that is the system in place.

Is this our Rome moment, so to speak? Is the real ‘new world’ one that goes far deeper than simply wearing masks in shops and not being able to go to football matches?
 
The country is in debt to the tune of two million million pounds. I can’t see how that is ever going to be paid back. The economy is in the worst situation ever, unemployment soaring. The retail sector looks screwed. I’d be interested to know how the government are going to sort out the finances with the continuing demands on it.
The budget is due. Presumably stamp duty will be reinstated at previous levels causing a housing crash. Not very much scope for tax increases.
These are not normal times
The worry is that virtually all Countries are in the same state due to COVID ( and things will continue to get worse)
Post COVID, governments will have to start addressing the massive debt.
So there will have to be tax increases and / or cuts in spending ( whilst trying to grow the economy- a pretty difficult task)
You cant simply keep borrowing for ever or eventually nobody will lend to you. You have to show that you will eventually pay back ( plus the interest)
The biggest economic challenge for generations ( much worse than the banking crisis)

Oh and if you think we have it bad- some of the poorer Countried will be in huge difficulties without an awful lot of aid. Some predict mass starvation if nothing is done.
 
It's only just over 100% of GDP, historically it's usually in the 90s and after WW2 it was 250%. Nothing to get too concerned about really, but Cameron easily managed to convince everybody austerity was necessary and used it to decimate public services and the same will probably happen again.
 
I’m afraid that it’s only going to get worse after January. I’m not even trying to provoke or ‘go there’, the simple reality is that there has never been a worse time to be doing what we’re doing, no matter what anybody thinks of it in principle. The Pandemic was a freak fire that broke out, but we’re about to dump a load of petrol on it. I genuinely fear for the extent of this, especially because while Sunak might be a money man (he’s been raised by the banks after all), the people around him are among the most incapable we’ve seen in decades. They mostly rode in on a single issue and were given positions based on how hard they’re willing to double down, and now find themselves particularly out of their depth in a situation that would be virtually impossible for even the most capable and qualified to navigate. Again, not even attempting to be provocative. Nobody would win this one - defeat is inevitable. But I think we’re one of the worst placed to even try to keep the score down.

Some form of Universal Basic Income might become an absolute necessity now. Unemployment is likely going to reach unfathomable levels in the months ahead, and the bigger that number the less the amount of expendable income. Unemployment means the economy can’t be fed through consumer spending, so it might take radical action on a scale we simply haven’t seen before. The problem with consumer capitalism as a whole, globally, is that it is dependant on constant and never ending growth to avoid collapse. It is unsustainable as a model if the conveyor belt stops for even a moment, and crumbles quickly and violently. I categorically do not say that as a sandal wearing tree hugger - I am a consumer capitalist as much as we all are, because that is the system in place.

Is this our Rome moment, so to speak? Is the real ‘new world’ one that goes far deeper than simply wearing masks in shops and not being able to go to football matches?


...and yet nothing's really materially changed.

Resources are still there. Infrastructure is still there. Population is still there.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.
 
...and yet nothing's really materially changed.

Resources are still there. Infrastructure is still there. Population is still there.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.
Well, quite. There is definitely a part of me that has always looked at things with an attitude of “this isn’t actually real - you just use this supposed system to pick and choose what happens and who you allow to have certain things in life.” Just numbers on a screen and all that.

I quite fancy selling the house and taking off in a camper. Just look for the mural of Matty Taylor in a bikini on the back.
 
The numbers and the whole concept of physical money etc. is a bit of a mad one and I’m sure as Essex has said that it will eventually change.

I don’t claim to know anything on the subject other than having a Brother in Law high up in one of the world banks. The department he heads are responsible for risk assessing acquiring debt or loaning money to other countries.

He tried to explain to me a deal they were in the process of working on between two countries and he said the numbers involved were so confusing and abstract that the 11 of them sat around the table were absolutely perplexed.

Apparently it was one of his most interesting projects in 20 years. It just hurt my head! Never did ask what happened.
 
Hate to tell you this but...............

Hate to beak this to you but:

  • The Bank of England holds around 200 billion pounds worth of gold (not all owned by UK government)
  • The UK government has gold reserves worth around 10 billion pounds
  • The UK government debt is currently at two trillion pounds

That means we have gold reserves covering 0.5% of our total debt. That's less than one percent. Even if the UK government illegally seized every piece of gold in the Bank of England, it would only be 10% of our total debt. So that video is like you being in £200,000 worth of credit card debt but saying it's ok because there's a bank vault with £20,000 of gold in it, of which you own around nine hundred quid of!

That's what I meant by how the scale of government has long since surpassed the idea of physical money!

In fact, the total value of all the gold ever mined would pay of the UK's and Frances national debt. All the gold mined, ever. Two countries national debt.

If you gave Japan or China all of the gold ever mined, it wouldn't cover either of their national debt. It would pay off around a quarter of the USAs.

So yeah, as I was saying, the days of physical money or gold reserves having any relevance to national debt have long gone, sorry!
 
In fact, the total value of all the gold ever mined would pay of the UK's and Frances national debt. All the gold mined, ever. Two countries national debt.



...let alone finding some b****r who wants to buy it.
 
We have been mining Gold since around 700BC............................. something like 171,300 tonnes "exist" today with a further 52,000 waiting to be dug.

Debt is just numbers................it is just data.
We have gone from coinage of precious metal with intrinsic value, through the modern bi-metallic coinage & onto cards......... who needs to produce "physical money" when it can just be a digital transaction?
Not in our life time but physical cash is on its death bed.
 
Ironically gold is less arbitrary in its value now then ever before.
 
The way this conversation’s going I think some people might have a surprising Marxist epiphany :)

Doubt it very much.
Be more Buddhist....... The real measure of your wealth is how much you’d be worth if you lost all your money.
;)
 
To take things to the next logical level, surely the only things with actual intrinsic value are things that provide good, shelter, etc... if there was a worldwide apocalypse and breakdown in society, I’d rather have stockpile of food, clean water, medicine, seeds and tools than all the ‘precious’ metals in the world!
 
Our national debt put into context:

If you spent £1million per day it would take you from when the Egyptians started building the pyramids u till today and you still wouldn't have the same level of debt.

It is just meaningless balls, used at times for political expediency, as it was with austerity.

Oh...and the government owes a quarter of that £2trillion to........
Itself!
 
To take things to the next logical level, surely the only things with actual intrinsic value are things that provide good, shelter, etc... if there was a worldwide apocalypse and breakdown in society, I’d rather have stockpile of food, clean water, medicine, seeds and tools than all the ‘precious’ metals in the world!

Of course.

But good luck getting your medicine without gold circuitry.
 
In advance of societal breakdown I have extended the veg plot, built a greenhouse & we have a big stash of seeds.
Pigeon & squirrel goes with most things............ and cats taste like chicken.
 
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