General The "woke" society and liberalism.

Now I am fully in favour of us all treating each other as equals and with dignity and respect.
However society also has history that we can not change and words that have changed their meanings over time.

First up, its nearly Christmas...... and a classic song has a word "removed" so as not to "offend" whoever.

Why? The lyric is "You scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy faggot" no more, no less, just detrimental insults being exchanged in the context of a song. Maybe they should do away with the allegations of police brutality in the same song as well?

Not to be outdone the students at De Montfort University are "calling for it to be renamed" because they want to end its association with Simon De Montfort, a 13th-Century baron who expelled Jewish people from Leicester.
It was only named De Montfort University in 1992, it was previously Leicester Polytechnic.

Are people these days brought up to be "offended" by something because it is their "right" ?

I despair for the future.

Maybe the Forum`s more leftist/ liberal types can justify the thought processes to a right of centre old bloke.

As someone who is both gay and left-leaning, I will try to explain the Fairytale of New York debacle for you.

Now, I'll start off by saying that I myself am not offended by the song in of itself. It's one of those things I've grown up with, so the f-word used in it doesn't really correlate to me with direct homophobia. However, for a lot of gay people it does, especially the ones who were subject to school yard homophobic bullying, or abuse in the streets where that exact word would be used. It offends and upsets a lot of gay people.

If we assess what's actually happening, Radio 1 have decided to play the 1992 version that MacColl and the Pogues performed on Top of the Pops, which used different lyrics for two reasons. 1) MacColl didn't feel comfortable using the word, and 2) it was broadcast before the watershed so that word wasn't allowed. It's also worth noting that Radio 2 will still play the original, and Radio 6 Music DJs will have a choice of which one to play.

I've tried to find the 1992 version and I can't find it widely available anywhere, not on Spotify or iTunes, only in video form on YouTube. The one with the slur in it is still available to buy and stream almost everywhere. So when you factor in all the above, it's not even censorship as it's still available from so many places.

Now, you may be thinking 'f****t' isn't homophobic anyway. Well, we can consider the ways in which this word is used. 1) Mr Brain's pork balls, 2) old Irish slang word for 'lazy' (which is disputed) and 3) a common homophobic slur. None of the first two are hardly common parlance, and the third is not acceptable for anyone to say. You direct it at a colleague in a workplace, you'll at minimum receive disciplinary action. And even if you don't think this insult is a homophobic slur in the context of the song, it's a powerful word with some deeply upsetting connotations attached to it. The question is: why would you want to upset anyone over a Christmas song? Especially someone who's part of a minority who probably had that word shouted at them as they were being beaten up in the school playground?

It's hardly a word you would use often, and it's no skin off your nose if you don't ever say that word again. A few people have told me that when they see straight people singing that song, they take great glee in shouting that particular word, saying it louder and with more enthusiasm because that's the only time they're now allowed to say it. And when they're told they can't say it anymore because it's offensive, they get upset and angry, lashing out at anyone who disagrees. And I think that's the thing that gets me annoyed. It's when straight people are throwing the thoughts, feelings and opinions of gay people in the bin over a word that's only common use is as a homophobic slur. If a gay person says something is homophobic, it's your obligation to listen to them and take it on board. They might not always be right, but 99% of the time they are.

I hope that answers your question.
 
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Oh god I’m not going to read this thread. Just be nice, people

We are.
However some take it upon themselves to decide a name or a word is now "offensive" and try to erase them as though it will mend the past. It won`t.
It can shape the future.... as Margaret Attwood says "I’m not a prophet because there is no ‘the future’… There are an infinite number of possible futures, and the one that we get is going to depend on… how we behave now."
 
As someone who is both gay and left-leaning, I will try to explain the Fairytale of New York debacle for you.

Now, I'll start off by saying that I myself am not offended by the song in of itself. It's one of those things I've grown up with, so the f-word used in it doesn't really correlate to me with direct homophobia. However, for a lot of gay people it does, especially the ones who were subject to school yard homophobic bullying, or abuse in the streets where that exact word would be used. It offends and upsets a lot of gay people.

If we assess what's actually happening, Radio 1 have decided to play the 1992 version that MacColl and the Pogues performed on Top of the Pops, which used different lyrics for two reasons. 1) MacColl didn't feel comfortable using the word, and 2) it was broadcast before the watershed so that word wasn't allowed. It's also worth noting that Radio 2 will still play the original, and Radio 6 Music DJs will have a choice of which one to play.

I've tried to find the 1992 version and I can't find it widely available anywhere, not on Spotify or iTunes, only in video form on YouTube. The one with the slur in it is still available to buy and stream almost everywhere. So when you factor in all the above, it's not even censorship as it's still available from so many places.

Now, you may be thinking 'f****t' isn't homophobic anyway. Well, we can consider the ways in which this word is used. 1) Mr Brain's pork balls, 2) old Irish slang word for 'lazy' (which is disputed) and 3) a common homophobic slur. None of the first two are hardly common parlance, and the third is not acceptable for anyone to say. You direct it at a colleague in a workplace, you'll at minimum receive disciplinary action. And even if you don't think this insult is a homophobic slur in the context of the song, it's a powerful word with some deeply upsetting connotations attached to it. The question is: why would you want to upset anyone over a Christmas song? Especially someone who's part of a minority who probably had that word shouted at them as they were being beaten up in the school playground?

It's hardly a word you would use often, and it's no skin off your nose if you don't ever say that word again. A few people have told me that when they see straight people singing the song, they take great glee in shouting that particular word, saying it louder and with more enthusiasm because that's the only time they're now allowed to say it. And when they're told they can't say it anymore because it's offensive, they get upset and angry, lashing out at anyone who disagrees. And I think that's the thing that gets me annoyed. It's when straight people are throwing the thoughts, feelings and opinions of gay people in the bin over a word that's only common use as a homophobic slur. If a gay person says something is homophobic, it's your obligation to listen to them and take it on board. They might not always be right, but 99% of the time they are.

I hope that answers your question.

Most eloquently explained, and I agree that it can be used as a homophobic slur and that is not acceptable in a tolerant, respectful society.
However removing it`s use from a song in a different context doesn`t "delete" the word from society.
It is also a bundle of sticks/firewood, as well as a tasty mix of minced offal & pork wrapped in caul fat.
Now not many folk will go to buy either of those items these days so, over time, the usage of the word will decline naturally ....until someone pops up and reignites the issue.
So, back to the song, if it was just "let go" then no fuss, no headline, no Tweeting........ it would just fade away.
 
We are.
However some take it upon themselves to decide a name or a word is now "offensive" and try to erase them as though it will mend the past. It won`t.
It can shape the future.... as Margaret Attwood says "I’m not a prophet because there is no ‘the future’… There are an infinite number of possible futures, and the one that we get is going to depend on… how we behave now."
I’m pretty positive this scenario has arisen previously given some of your dubious views - as I see it there is no nuance to your views on racism, immigration, BLM, ‘woke’ culture, etc. People aren‘t always trying to erase the past, quite often we are looking at things in a different way with the passing of time and changing cultural attitudes. Laurence Fox posted a similar view to yours today and the Pogues official Twitter account replied with “f**k off you little herrenvolk shite”. In the surface that seems odd as he seems to be defending the band but as a someone else tweeted - “No, & here's the problem. The average person will likely think like you, that he's just sticking up for freedom of speech & non-censorship, & I do agree F.o.NY should be played as original, but Fox is co-opting this to further his alt-right 'anti-elites' faux outrage culture war”.
 
Most eloquently explained, and I agree that it can be used as a homophobic slur and that is not acceptable in a tolerant, respectful society.
However removing it`s use from a song in a different context doesn`t "delete" the word from society.
But they're not removing the song are they? They're just playing a different version of it. Part of my point was that this song is still available on Radio 2, Radio 6 Music and all places where you buy/stream music.
So, back to the song, if it was just "let go" then no fuss, no headline, no Tweeting........ it would just fade away.
I don't think something like this, a classic Christmas song, can just be let go. In the same way that Christians can't let the Bible go (especially ones that follow it to the letter instead of seeing the writings in a historical context and applying the lessons to modern day society). Societies evolve but cultural flagpoles can stay the same, and I think it's right that we reassess what might have been acceptable back then and find workarounds to ensure that groups of people aren't needlessly abused.

Also, this exact issue with this exact same song has come up for the past few years, and every time outrage is sparked, it's from straight people who are upset they can't say the word anymore. It's never from gay people protesting that the song be changed or removed from history. The spark has always been from straight people lashing out at institutions who try to change things for the better. And I think that's an important point to note.
 
I’m pretty positive this scenario has arisen previously given some of your dubious views - as I see it there is no nuance to your views on racism, immigration, BLM, ‘woke’ culture, etc. People aren‘t always trying to erase the past, quite often we are looking at things in a different way with the passing of time and changing cultural attitudes. Laurence Fox posted a similar view to yours today and the Pogues official Twitter account replied with “f**k off you little herrenvolk shite”. In the surface that seems odd as he seems to be defending the band but as a someone else tweeted - “No, & here's the problem. The average person will likely think like you, that he's just sticking up for freedom of speech & non-censorship, & I do agree F.o.NY should be played as original, but Fox is co-opting this to further his alt-right 'anti-elites' faux outrage culture war”.

The important part for me, as an old fossil who has been around the block a few times, is the passing of time bit.
Cultural attitudes and society does change over time and mostly for the better.
This sudden dynamic urge to seek out the bad past and hide it away isn`t how we should evolve.
Chucking statues into rivers doesn`t change what happened or what was acceptable at the time.
Changing a University name doesn`t erase the fact that De Montfort persecuted the local Jews.
Surely it is better to face and accept the issue and educate people around the reality?
We are supposed to learn from our past & our mistakes not repeat them.
 
I’ve got to say, and I’ve said it before, I don’t agree with everyone on here but you know, for a football forum , it’s pretty good and there’s some really high level debate. I’d like to see the Crewe forum attempt it.
 
They should just bleep out the words - loads of songs on the radio are censored, it’s hardly anything new. It’s not a big deal

Yeah, this is my thought as well.

Plenty of songs that get radio play use the other f-word, and they just miss out the offending word. Many songs use the n-word, to similar effect.
(although I still fondly remember the time when Mark & Lard "accidentally" played the wrong version of Watch Yourself by Mystical and had to try apologize for it between tears and howls of laughter.....)

This f-word is now universally accepted as homophobic and offensive, so what's the problem with just missing it out? It hardly ruins the song (which I still maintain is the only good Christmas song ever written.......)
 
This ^^^

I agree with everything that Batman so eloquently and bravely describes.

But I figure there’s a difference between the utopian ideological vision versus the reality of the outcome.

it’s a virtue signaling culture. Identity politics isn’t improving things it’s creating an issue that wasn’t there or was tangibly dissipating over a few short decades after centuries of issues. The path WAS positive. Not ideal that it’s taking years not weeks; but certainly humanity is course correcting nicely and in the big scheme of things at a decent rate.

But rightly or wrongly the wokeness is clearly creating a frustration and counter reaction. The far left is thumping a drum for its own tribe to sing to and alienating big clumps of the center. It’s often self indulgent and they’re not considering the actual reality of the outcome. In some cases I think they enjoy it as an “I told you so” moment when there’s a reaction ....regardless of whether they stoked it, or nurtured a non issue from nothing; I also think they ignore the unintended outcomes for those they speak up on behalf of
 
It hardly ruins the song (which I still maintain is the only good Christmas song ever written.......)

someone clearly forgot this uplifting ditty....
 

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someone clearly forgot this uplifting ditty....

I don't think there's ever been a song that tests my general ethos of pragmatism over idealism more than that one.

Because it undoubtedly raised a ton of cash and did a lot of good.......

......but on the other hand, it's cringy, patronizing, mostly inaccurate B*****s.
 
Presumably Shakespeare is well on his way to being banned too. Contemporary relevance is no longer a Defence
 
I don't think there's ever been a song that tests my general ethos of pragmatism over idealism more than that one.

Because it undoubtedly raised a ton of cash and did a lot of good.......

......but on the other hand, it's cringy, patronizing, mostly inaccurate B*****s.

Watch the video on YouTube...killer vibe at the studios with a journalistic frenzy

altruistic but self indulgent to an extreme
 
Presumably Shakespeare is well on his way to being banned too. Contemporary relevance is no longer a Defence
Do you not recall Thomas Bowdler, Richard?

I'm frightfully offended, to be honest, that you are claiming that the current wave is the preserve of the 'far left', or is it another flowering of our suddenly silent friend @bashamwonderland and his 'Postmodern Marxism'?
 
The important part for me, as an old fossil who has been around the block a few times, is the passing of time bit.
Cultural attitudes and society does change over time and mostly for the better.
This sudden dynamic urge to seek out the bad past and hide it away isn`t how we should evolve.
Chucking statues into rivers doesn`t change what happened or what was acceptable at the time.
Changing a University name doesn`t erase the fact that De Montfort persecuted the local Jews.
Surely it is better to face and accept the issue and educate people around the reality?
We are supposed to learn from our past & our mistakes not repeat them.
So yeah, if there was a popular Christmas song that mentioned fat Leicester twats, you’d probably laugh a bit about it, maybe get a bit fed up, but you wouldn’t make a big fuss. But if it had only been legal to be a fat Leicester t**t for half a century, and not so long before that it had been a capital offence, well you might be a bit more ‘woke’ about it.
 
Yeah, this is my thought as well.

Plenty of songs that get radio play use the other f-word, and they just miss out the offending word. Many songs use the n-word, to similar effect.
(although I still fondly remember the time when Mark & Lard "accidentally" played the wrong version of Watch Yourself by Mystical and had to try apologize for it between tears and howls of laughter.....)

This f-word is now universally accepted as homophobic and offensive, so what's the problem with just missing it out? It hardly ruins the song (which I still maintain is the only good Christmas song ever written.......)

Whoa! You’ve just got to look beyond the usual. Take it away, Run DMC ...


(Throw in that it features in Christmas favourite Die Hard and you have a classic on your hands.)
 

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